Tai Zen: What’s up guys. This is Tai Zen again. In the studio today, I have some very, very special guests from the cryptocurrency community. On my right here, we got the honorable grandmaster legendary LeonFu.com
Leon Fu: Hi there
Tai Zen: We also have in the studio with us today a very special guests, Michael Spruill. He’s one of the advisors to the Particl privacy coin project. Furthermore, he’s a veteran cryptocurrency investor. Say Hello, Michael.
Michael Spruill: Hi guys.
Tai Zen: Joining us live from South Africa is Rhino Mattei. He’s the lead core developer for the Particl project. Say hello Rhino
Rhino Mattei: Hi everyone
Tai Zen: Joining us from Columbus, Ohio, one of the northern states in the United States of America, is Paul Schmitzer. He’s the communications manager for the Particl Projects. Say hello Paul.
Paul: Hi everyone.
Tai Zen: Let’s go ahead and get started. In the previous part, we talked about the history and the background of the Particl Privacy Coin Project. In this part 2, we’re going to talk about the technology behind Particl and the need and necessity for the Particl project.
Do you want to explain to the audience about how the ShadowCash users use the SDC tokens and the SDT tokens?
Leon Fu: Based on our research, we know that since Particl has its history in ShadowCash, ShadowCash protected user’s privacy by using ring signatures, which we did a big series explaining that.
What ShadowCash actually did was they had these two tokens, SDC or SDT. If you ever use ShadowCash, that refers to the public balance and the private balance. One feature of it is you are able to exchange your public balance into your private balance back and forth.
However, in the private balance, you would actually use ring signatures to hide or make unclear the transaction history. That’s how ShadowCash maintained the user’s privacy.
Rhino, I’m going to ask you how this is going to be different from ShadowCash. What is Particl going to do that is the same or different from ShadowCash?
Tai Zen: Before you answer Rhino, I notice that someone is tapping on the keyboard and it’s really loud on this side. Please just gently touch the keyboard when you use it.
Rhino Mattei: Firstly, we’re going to have steal addresses and the ring signatures. That’ll be the same. We also going to have public balance and private balance.
However, we plan to add confidential transactions and blinded transactions, so people will be able to send coins with opt as an invisible balance. When you send out receivables, you know what the balance is. You’ll be able to do that with ring signatures or with (3:21) in normal Bitcoin transactions.
Tai Zen: Okay. Will you still be using the 2 token system in Particl like what was used in ShadowCash or are you going to move to a different system?
Rhino Mattei: We’re still going to have private balance and public balance. We’re going to have the same sort of mechanism.
Tai Zen: Based on your research, do you have some questions about how it was used on the exchange?
Leon Fu: Yeah. In ShadowCash, we always trade it as SDC, the public balance.
Is it possible to trade private balance? I’ve never heard of an SDT until I actually researched ShadowCash, because it was SDC that was always traded.
My question is whether the primary token is going to be the public balance or the private balance because the whole point of Particl is the privacy features. Therefore, why are there 2 tokens?
Why not just make it one like Monero?
Rhino Mattei: I think that you don’t kit all the functionality that we need like multisig wallets. We currently don’t have that ability like Monero. They’re busy working on it, but we have stealth address and multisig wallets on normal transactions. Therefore, the escrow accounts will be using normal transactions that can be converted into anonymous transactions. That’s sort of why we want to make use of both.
Besides, exchanges have the ability to receive that private balance. They would just need to receive by using a stealth address instead of a normal address. Then, people can make use of the narration field. It would work the same as Monero if they went that route.
Tai Zen: Basically, one of the main benefits of the Particl that you are coming out is the Particl marketplace. In that marketplace, there need to be some escrow services. In order for those escrow services to occur, you need the Particl tokens to be able to do escrow.
If you were to just build the privacy in, it would be the default and just use one type of token, in which you will not be able to do a multi-signature escrow type service. Is that correct?
Rhino Mattei: We can still do it with the blinded transactions, but we won’t able to do it with ring signature transactions at this point.
Tai Zen: Okay. For the investors to understand, the reason why you have 2 tokens is you can do multi-signature transactions. Correct?
Rhino Mattei: Multisignatures and the staking as well. There are a lot of things that the public does differently to the private balance. Therefore We going to keep the public balance to run the network and to allow people to share their balances if they went to.
He was asking us why you don’t build the Particl marketplace on top of existing cryptocurrency projects such as Ethereum because there’s a roadmap already. They’re going to add the ZK-Snarks to maintain privacy.
Why don’t you just do it there? Why do we build a completely new blockchain, then add privacy on it and have its own token system? Can you explain that Rhino?
Rhino Mattei: We’re not building it on top of Ethereum. We’re not sure.
change the way that the code works. They’ve done a hard fork with odds. They had a general consensus, but I don’t mean they were a lot of people against it
We also want to allow people to gather their fees. In order to do that, they need to do some proof of stake. They don’t currently have the ZK working on their roadmap. That releases the market before that. Therefore, all kinds of these things are taken into consideration.
We also on starting the market from scratch with the ShadowCash project we worked at school back then, so we are building on top of it. We’re not starting over.
Tai Zen: Okay. Anything to add to that Paul?
Paul: No. The big part about that, which is just like he said, is the Particl is not starting from scratch. We build a prototype MVP of Bitcoin and it works for what we’re doing too. We have all the privacy from Shadow.
If we did it on Ethereum, we would have wait for it to be done or any delays…
Leon Fu: Why do you need the Particl token? Why don’t you use the ShadowCash token that was already there?
You’re going through this token swap to get rid of all the SDC. Then, you’re going to have created this marketplace with its own token. Why don’t you build this marketplace to use an existing privacy project?
Paul: Do you want me to answer?
Leon Fu: Tou can go ahead and take that
Paul: We’ve hit on it a little bit, but the reason we have the currency within the marketplace is we have proof of stake that’s within the platform and reward the people…
Leon Fu: But ShadowCash already has those features. Why does this marketplace need a separate coin? There are plenty of privacy project coins out there. Why do you need another one to operate this marketplace?
Rhino: With the token itself, we’re obviously giving them the anonymity. It has all features that are in the multi-sig such as privacy features.
Leon Fu: You’re saying all the other tokens out there that are building this don’t have these features that the marketplace would need. Is that what you’re saying or implying?
Rhino Mattei: Yeah. Quite a lot of them. Ethereum, for instance, is just a smart contract platform you build on top of it, so you wouldn’t use the token itself. It shapeshifts into it.
However, we’d need our own token to add all the features that others don’t have. Zcash, we don’t know how if its privacy or their escrow is working if it works with the anonymous transactions. Monero, for instance, they don’t support escrow and multi-sig. Therefore, our token is unique and that’s all (11:57 – 11:59) for the market.
Tai Zen: From an investor’s perspective, they want to know why you are creating a new token or a currency for Particls marketplace instead of using an existing one.
What you’re basically saying is the current existing cryptocurrencies on the market do not have all the privacy, anonymous features and the marketplace features that you need to operate the Particl marketplace. Is that correct?
Rhino Mattei: We need the full package.
Tai Zen: Let’s talk about the shortcomings of the other privacy coins that prompted you to build the Particl project.
This question is directed to you, Michael. When we spoke in private, you said that the feature base of the other privacy coins such as Monero, Boolberry, Blackcoin, Dash, etc. are more focused on the platform base. Can you talk about that?
Michael Spruill: This is one of the things we believe is unique with the projects. That is kind of the full package just like Rhino has mentioned you have to build these things to cater to what you need.
We think that for Particl or any of these anonymous currencies, you need a use case. The whole idea with this is to create a platform with anonymous transactions, anonymous messaging and anonymous e-commerce.
By packaging all that together, you’ve basically providing communities with a full suite to be able to use the currency itself.
Whereas, with these other currencies while, some of them do anonymity very, very well. That’s what they’ve focused on.
The risk known to everyone in the cryptocurrency community is Ethereum or Bitcoin can just come in with their massive network and the resources and add that feature into their platforms. The same with the Ethereum and the ZK-Snarks.
Therefore, if you’re a one trick pony that does one thing very well, a larger network will come in and takes that feature, which will damage the longevity of your project.
For these single-featured coins, the fungibility and store value is very important. I think at least a handful of those over there have their important coins, and they need to be in an ecosystem.
With the privacy project, the team wants to provide a platform to be able to use the anonymity to use the privacy to spend it, to receive it. Right now, with some of these coins, you can use them on like a darknet market and other places, but that’s kind of the extent of how they’re used.
Tai Zen: To summarize it for the investors, there are 2 reasons why you go to the platform route versus the feature route.
Firstly, you didn’t want to come up with something, then the bigger cryptocurrency projects such as Bitcoin or Ethereum come in and adopt that one feature. If that happens, there’s no you for your project because they have bigger networks
Secondly, once these privacy coins over are created, they have to go find a market place or a use case for it. Whereas you are building the market place and the use case for that token and that cryptocurrency at the same time, so when they have the Particl tokens, they have a place to actually go and use it.
Michael Spruill: In addition, I will add one of the unique things we’re doing with this platform, which was a decision we made during the transition from the Shadow project to Particl. We wanted to make currency agnostic.
We want to have a foster environment of inclusivity, not exclusivity. We also think that’s kind of a big issue right now where platforms and teams are kind of fighting each other and saying we’re better.
What we want to do is tell everybody to come and use the platform. That will be a later iteration on the platform.
At first, it will be ship shift integration, but I know the team is working on developing ways where you just bring your Monero or Zcahs and you’d be able to spend it with any vendors that accept that currency.
Leon Fu: Do they need to accept that currency?
Michael Spruill: Not if they don’t want to and early on they could say they also accept this.
However, the whole plan would be to integrate some sort of exchange, whether it’s with a partnership of another decentralized exchange or something native, where you have a vendor over here who wants to Monero and another guy who wants Particl could swap the tokens.
We can build that into the network and that’ll come later. Nonetheless, the whole point with this is we want to adopt and include all of the network effects of Monero, Bitcoin, Ethereum because those are huge communities, instead of trying to compete them.
Tai Zen: we want to work together.
Michael Spruill: Right. That’s what we should be doing because it’s not us against each other. It’s us against people that want to take our privacy away and monitor it.
Leon Fu: Basically, you want to do things that these other projects are not doing and create a marketplace that they can then take their coin and use it
Michael Spruill: We want to do as many offers as possible.
Tai Zen: Whenever you talk about the Particl marketplace, the first question that comes into the investor’s mind is what type of vendors or merchants would want to use the Particl marketplace.
If I’m a vendor or a merchant, why don’t I just go and use the currently existing ones such as Amazon or Ebay? Why do I have to go to Particl marketplace?
Michael Spruill: That’s a good question. As we’ve talked about, I don’t see this marketplace is going to replace my Amazon prime membership. That’s not what it’s geared to do.
However, there’s a whole a large number of people around the world, both in developing and developed nations, that either doesn’t have access to eBay or Amazon accounts; have lost their privileges on them or don’t have access to banking.
There’s this huge group of not just unbanked people, but people that they aren’t even offering the services in their countries where the government has censored what you can buy and sell for various reasons. For example, there’s censorship in China and other countries around the world.
As a result, what we want to do is targeting those people.
Tai Zen: Basically, you’re saying that the Particl marketplace is not designed to be a darknet or to sell illegal stuff. It’s designed to help and foster the business people, vendors, and merchants who simply cannot open up a marketplace online.
Michael Spruill: Absolutely
Tai Zen: Regardless of which countries they are in
Michael Spruill: We’ve got one of e-commerce adviser and he sells things on eBay and Amazon. Particl is an answer to someone like him. For various reasons, he would be one of those that would probably use all the platforms to market those products, but there are a lot of people that don’t even have that option.
Tai Zen: Let’s talk about the consumers that would use the Particl marketplace. As a consumer, what reason would I have to come and buy products and services from the Particl marketplace?
Leon Fu: Exactly. You can see all these products that are in the picture right here. I can get them on Amazon.
Michael Spruill: For consumers, there’s going to be a large group of people that never have access to these types of markets and now they do. Therefore, there could be a whole host of new products or products at better prices because the fees are lower. They can outsell those people on eBay and Amazon.
What we’re expecting is there’s going to be a similar amount of consumers that will match those new vendors that come on.
Leon Fu: What would I see here as a part of our marketplace that I couldn’t just go buy on Amazon or Ebay?
Michael Spruill: I would expect a lot of the products that we’d find on here, especially in the developing countries, are products that people can’t easily get them due to the governments
Leon Fu: Are they niche products?
Michael Spruill: Not even niche products. Just products that they’re not even available online. Once there are now online, they can go get them.
Leon Fu: Can you give me an example?
Michael Spruill: All sorts of things that you’d normally use in your daily life. It can also have collectibles and niche products.
Leon Fu: Based on what you’re saying the customers are people that can’t use Amazon, eBay and they are in a specific region of the world that can’t sell on Amazon or Ebay
Michael Spruill: It would be things like that.
If you look at OpenBazaar, people are very creative about what they’ve put on there. There are all sorts of guys that make their own foods, spices, and woodcarvings. I mean there are all different things.
Tai Zen: Let’s say Leon and I like to eat beef jerky. In the US, you have to sell the beef jerky in a specific way. In other words, it has to meet certain standards that the food and drug administration sets.
For example, if they say that it has to last 30 days and your beef jerky can last 10 days, they won’t let you sell it.
Another example is Leon currently lives in the city of Austin, Texas. I used to live there as well. There was one thing always annoyed me, which was I wanted to go buy some fresh squeezed orange juice.
I know that after you squeeze it out of the orange, it will last 3, 4, 5 days. It is not going to go bad if you put it refrigerate.
However, under the laws of the city of Austin, you could not sell fresh squeezed orange juice that was more than a day old. The vendor that I bought had to throw away what they couldn’t sell. For me, it doesn’t bother it’s refrigerated.
Michael Spruill: I mean there are a lot of products that eBay, Amazon, and Paypal have banned. They’re not even necessarily harmful to people. It can be things like cigars. Things that are not allowed on these platforms where people should be able to buy and sell freely.
Leon Fu: Now, marijuana is actually legal in many states. It’s illegal in some places and legal in the other states. Do see it can possibly be traded in your market?
Michael Spruill: That’s a tough one to answer.
We expect people to follow the rules and regulations of their jurisdictions. Obviously, things that are clearly illegal and harmful to people would be monitored and dealt with by the community. They can say this is harmful or this is bad for everybody.
We don’t want it to be a darknet market, but we also aren’t necessarily trying to replace where you buy your toilet or paper mop. Although there are nations where they can’t get toilet paper. Maybe you’ll find toilet paper on there in Argentina. It just depends.
However, it’s like with Bitcoin. Back in the day, people say what you are going to use it for. Then, people get creative and all of a sudden there are tens of thousands of use cases for Bitcoin.
We expect people to get creative and start using this platform for those types of things. Maybe things that we can’t even come up with right now.
Tai Zen: Next thing that we want to address is as Leon and I were researching the Particl marketplace, some of the challenges we found were, first of all, the market analytics. Do you want to go over that?
Leon Fu: You know we’re all very familiar with eBay and Amazon. They have very powerful market analytics because they have all this data. They know that you are giving up your privacy, so one of the ways they use that data is to give recommendations.
Whenever I search for something, not only do I get the product I’m looking for, I also get a bunch of other products that they now to have a very high probability of me buying that product.
I don’t think Particl can do that because you don’t have this data. Therefore, how are you going to compete with that while being private?
Michael Spruill: It’s a good question.
I would say that’s not necessarily what the marketplace is engineered to do. I mean you’re competing against multi-billion USD companies in their analytics, tens of years of analytics being built in their system by using us as a kind of the product to determine what we should be buying and selling, or what they should be serving up to us.
What the users on the Particl marketplace are going to be looking for and the way they’re going to use the marketplace is not necessarily going to be handicapped by not having these user analytics.
That’s not the purpose of the marketplace because you end up sacrificing some of the convenience to see more promoted products. I don’t think you would need that.
Leon Fu: In return, I may get the best product.
Michael Spruill: When I go to Particl marketplace, I’ve done research about what I want. I can go on there and search directly for that.
Therefore, it’s up to the user to determine what they’re going to try and find on the marketplace rather than relying on algorithm on Amazon.
If I know that I want this guy’s honey in Arizona, then I’m going on there and search for that.
Leon Fu: You don’t plan on seeing the guy from Utah that you might like it while searching for that Arizona guy?
Michael Spruill: If I’m searching for honey, it’s going to show up there, but I’m not relying on an algorithm to say this one is better than this.
Leon Fu: If I search for a Logitech remote, it might say here’s a Sony remote and you might like better.
Michael Spruill: It’s going to find the keywords remote and show you remotes, but it’s up to you to determine this remote is better than that one.
I mean there are reviews and stuff that you can do, but there’s a human aspect to this. You’ve got to use your own senses and your own research.
Leon Fu: If I just have a vague idea of what I want, I might search for something that’s close to it. Plus, we all know Google and eBay analytics and search engines are decades ahead of anything.
Michael Spruill: of course
Leon Fu: Do you feel you will still be competitive like enough to attract the vendors?
Michael Spruill: Again, you’re going more for niche products where the person already knows what they want.
I wouldn’t find out the Particl marketplace if I were just saying feel like getting a remote today. I’m going to go do the research and determine what type of product I want. Again, I would argue that is not the field where the marketplace trying to compete it.
If I know that I want to look at art things in a certain country, I’ll go to the country category and I searched clay pottery or whatever. Whoever is selling that is going to have multiple tags on their listing.
It’s more up to the vendors to market themselves. If you want to sell something, you’ve got to market yourself in a way that it’s going to be caught by the consumer and by the search engine.
People are creative. I see it all the time in different websites where the algorithm is not that advanced, but the person obviously knew what they were doing and trying to get out there as much as possible.
Therefore, the responsibility falls on you, but that’s the double-edged sword with the privacy and security and all those things you’re getting with the marketplace, which you’re not necessarily going to get on Amazon.
Again, these are people that may not even have access to Amazon, so they don’t even know that there is these powerful analytics.
If I don’t even know that exists anyways, it’s not a feature I’m sacrificing because it’s not available to me anyways. That’s would be my response.
Leon Fu: When you said you wanted to build a decentralized marketplace, if I want to sell something, I will obviously find OpenBazaar.
One of the challenges I think they are having and therefore you will have is their search engine. which frankly sucks. I can’t find anything I’m looking for.
Once again, eBay and Amazon have decades of experience doing a search, not only analytics. I will say that you don’t have to be as good as Amazon and eBay, but you have to be a lot better than OpenBazaar.
So how are you going to find relevant products? Have you thought about how you’re going to do search better?
Michael Spruill: I’ve asked the team and we’ve talked about this
In the early stage, again, there’ll be iterations as you kind of get feedback from customers and say: Hey, these people are gaming the system”, then you try to create methods to combat
Leon Fu: That’s a constant battle with Google. They’re constantly battling and gaming the system.
Michael Spruill: Early on, basically you’d have tags to allow your search engine to pick up on things. However, there’ll be limited tags, because if you do unlimited tax, people can get crazy and have 100 tags, which always show up. Therefore, you’ve got to limit the number of tags someone can do to, at least somewhat relevant to the searches they’re going to be in.
Because it’s a decentralized marketplace, there’s no central algorithm or authority that’s going to go in say this is not a belt or this is honey. You’re going to rely on the network to help kind of police
Leon Fu: Community policing
Michael Spruill: Exactly. It’s a decentralized network. There is no centralized network, so it’s going to be up to the community to keep it a clean place.
Leon Fu: What’s the incentive for me to do that as if I was Particl user?
Michael Spruill: I understand one of the incentives is not litter. Most people don’t litter. We know it’s for the common good. If I’m searching for a belt and sunglasses keep popping up, I’m going to want to be pruning these things
Leon Fu: you’re expecting altruism…
Michael Spruill: …to make it a better network because that’s all you can do unless you set up some sort of a reward system
Leon Fu: I was thinking of is maybe you need to incentivize people to do that.
Michael Spruill: You can hire some of these groups where you could have the network cover the costs of these moderators, but again that’s kind of centralized. Therefore, how much is too much.
It’s a fascinating issue we’re all having to deal with in the decentralized community and in cryptocurrencies. For some of these things, the answers to them won’t be clear like decentralized governance and decentralized revenue sources. What are all these things cryptocurrencies are trying to figure out right now?
Leon Fu: What I’m saying is a lot of resources are going to be put to your search engine.
Michael Spruill: It could be resourcing, but it can be very good resourcing.
As you say, the marketplace is very reliant on good search results. With Bazaar, most people don’t want to use it because they can’t even find what they’re looking for. If they focus on fixing that, which I’m sure they’re working on, that’s great.
As you can see, we’re all moving forward in this. we’re going to see they address this issue this way or we’re going to come up with another way. While it could be resource intensive to figure out, I would argue it’s one of the most important things.
Therefore, it would be a very good way of spending resources of a project to figure it out, but that’s going to definitely be a focus.
Tai Zen: The third challenge, which is probably for you Rhino, is the mobile platform.
How will Particl run a mobile platform and remain decentralized? Because from our understanding, Particl needs to run constantly to keep the marketplace listing active. For example, OpenBazaar does not.
Leon Fu: Therefore, you can’t run open OpenBazaar on a mobile platform.
How is Particl going to solve that problem? Because we believe that mobile is the primary computing device right now.
Rhino Mattei: The listings are going to be updated every 2 days, so you pay listing (36:09) to keep your ad active for 2 days, then it could potentially pay extra to keep it active for longer.
Overall, the mobile device will be updated every 2 days to get the latest listings. The listings will be synced to the device. The actual blockchain On the currency side of it, we’ll be using SPV, so light wallets and the actual listings It’s the message that is going to be
Leon Fu: You said the mobile device is going to sync for a few days worth of listings. Is that what you mean? If I’m on this iPhone and I want to search Particl, my iPhone has to go download some blocks from the blockchain to get these listings.
Rhino Mattei: It’s not the blockchain itself. It’s just a package of messages to get the data.
Leon Fu: It’s a message based system. The listings are actually messages like an email. Is that what you mean or,
Rhino Mattei: The listings themselves are messages and then they are indexed into the local database.
Leon Fu: Okay. That’s interesting. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t even need to have Internet access once I’ve synced.
Rhino Mattei: Yeah. You’ll be able to search for them offline.
Leon Fu: Okay. All right. That’s an interesting method.
Tai Zen: The fourth challenge that we see to the Particl marketplace is the reputation systems. Do you want to explain what the reputation systems are?
Leon Fu: We are all familiar with eBay because it’s a peer-to-peer market. Uber and Airbnb are reputation system where their customers would review each other, then you build up a reputation.
My question is what type of reputation you see as a challenge for this. The reason is the reputation is a big part of consumer protection to make sure you’re going to get what’s advertised right, and to weed out scammers or illegal products.
How do you see that happening in Particl?
Rhino Mattei: Each time you do a successful deal, there will be a transaction on the blockchain. No one knows whom that belongs to, but there’s a public event linked to each purchase, so you have the private
For all those public or transaction, you could sign a signature to prove that you had a successful deal. In order to prove your reputation, you would sign that are on the blockchains groups to prove someone that you have a successful deal.
If you were to do something wrong, they could record the transaction that you tried to be malicious against him. That would be a negative reputation.
Leon Fu: Would it be similar to what we are already familiar with? It’s like you can rate 0 to 5 stars and comment about that. Is that what you envision it to be?
Rhino Mattei: You only know someone’s reputation once you start to go into escrow with him.
Leon Fu: Don’t I want to know his reputation before I do a deal with them. Is that something I can look up?
Rhino Mattei: No. At that point, you’re still in negotiation.
When you decide to buy this product, they would come back to you and say either I have this much reputation, so we don’t need to do 100% escrow or I have no reputation at all, so you need to put on 100% deposits on top of your negotiating process.
If something wrong happens, people are going to lose money and based on their reputation, they might a lower rate.
Michael Spruill: Basically, when you decide that you would like a product, you click buy and it sends a message to the individual. That’s where you kind of create the first bridge between you two, then you can see the reputation if you want to enter into escrow or not.
It doesn’t lock you in at that point. You can decide that you don’t want to.
Leon Fu: so you have to make a pre-commitment like I might want to buy this.
Michael Spruill: That creates a connection between you and the seller because, again, this is all anonymous. It’s secure. There have to be messages exchanged between the two people.
If you see that he doesn’t have a very good reputation, you can decide either I don’t want to do it or I’m going to full escrow. However, if he has a good reputation, you might choose to do only 10% escrow or not at all.
Leon Fu: As I understand, the reputation is kind of tied to the escrow. The advantage of you having a higher reputation is you might have a lower escrow.
Rhino Mattei: You might be able to do deal with people more efficiently…
Tai Zen: The fifth challenge that I see to the Particl platform is the seller’s protection. Can you explain how the default privacy feature protects sellers from competitors? Why do vendors want privacy anyway?
Rhino Mattei: I think that’s something Micheal can answer.
Michael Spruill: I mean people can rip off people in either direction. It can be the case like I’m selling things and ship it to someone, then they just never pay me. I want to be protected for that.
Leon Fu: That’s the purpose of the escrow?
Michael Spruill: Yeah. That’s a game theoretic method of dealing with this issue. It’s a very interesting way of dealing with this issue.
It’s kind of saying we both have skin in the game. In that way, I can ensure that he is going to actually pay me for the product that I just shipped him.
Leon Fu: Is there any example of this mutually assured destruction in practice right now?
Michael Spruill: I think Bitpay… Bitpay is a cryptocurrency wallet.
Tai Zen: Do you want to explain to the audience what the mutually assured destruction is?
Leon Fu: From my understanding, it’s basically the seller and the buyer put in a deposit. If the deal goes bad, they both lose their deposit. Hence, it’s mutually destroyed. That gives both sides an incentive to act honestly in the deal. It sounds like it might work, but I’ve just not seen it in action.
Michael Spruill: It’s one of the better ways of addressing the whole issue without having the third party.
Leon Fu: Sure.
Michael Spruill: You’ve got to make people have skin in the game, otherwise you’re always going to gain.
Leon Fu: I wonder if it will actually work in the real world…
Tai Zen: Why did the vendors want privacy?
If I’m selling remote controls, why do I want privacy? I want people to know that people are buying remotes, so other customers can see that I’m selling a lot of these remote and they can come to me.
Michael Spruill: I think it’s a 2-way street. There’s no way to have privacy just as a one-way street.
If seller or buyers want privacy on there, obviously the vendor is going to need to have it because there’s no one-way street.
Again, get back in the whole thing, there are plenty of products people want to have privacy in buying or selling. Therefore, the vendors have to offer privacy on the platform. It’s a package deal.
If you have buyers want privacy, there’s no way for them to do that without vendors using privacy too. If the vendor wants to sell their product regardless of what it is, need to be private by default.
Tai Zen: This will conclude part 2. For more information about the Particl.io, check out Particl.io. We’ll see you guys in the next part.
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