Ethereum For Investors #29 – Ethereum Classic Development Q&A With Ethereum Classic Core Developer, Marcus Brown

Tai Zen: If you guys can hear me please let me know out there just to put in a chatbox, what city you guys can hear us from and that way we can sort the interview. There’s a slight delay so Zika can hear us from London

Chuck: Hello. Are you guys doing

Carlo: How you doing Zika? Oh there we go

Tai Zen: And once we get a few more and then we can get me started. So we got a few confirmations in so what’s going to get started guys on this broadcast. We got Girgis G, Girgis G is in the house so he misses last time so he said he apologized for that so I’m glad to see you back, I hope I say it right, Girgis

Carlo: So he’s got some extra troll saved up then we should get it we should get double this time

Tai Zen: Unleashes wrath this time

Carlo: Metrobank is full

Tai Zen: He’s a good guy, he’s a good guy, he apologizes for missing the last live broadcast so he said he won’t miss this okay so anyways guys so let’s go ahead and get this started guys. So my name is a Tai Zen, I’m one of the Oracles of Cryptocurrency here on the Cryptocurrency. market Channel and we also have my buddy – the other Oracle of Cryptocurrency.

Just you guys know this channel’s about helping people that little guy on the main street, invest in Cryptocurrency like the big boys on Wall Street and with us today guys we have 3 very special guests. We have Marcus Brown, he is one of the core developers for the Ethereum Classic software and Ethereum Classic project, say hello Marcus.

Marcus: Hey guys, what’s going on?

Tai Zen: Marcus is going to be broadcasting out of a town near the City of Phoenix Arizona that’s kind like the South Western part of the United States for anyone that’s outside the US and then we have Carlo, he is the official community manager from broadcasting from New York City. Say hello Carlo

Carlo: Hi you guys, how’s everybody

Tai Zen: And then we also have Shocked, he runs the ETH underscore classic Twitter handle and he’s basically like the Ethereum community organizer. He was the one who got myself and Marcus together for this interview so anybody that has any questions about getting in touch with anybody in the game community you can go through Chuck.

And he’s broadcasting out of a city called Tampa Florida to bury a popular vacation in beach city has one of the most beautiful beaches in America called Clearwater Beach so you guys ever get a chance to go there, I’ll get in touch with him and maybe you guys can have a beer together.

In this hangout guys, we want to talk about we’re going to focus on the software development in the focus is going to be how they’re now that bite Alex and the human foundation and his team is no longer working on the Ethereum Classic because of they hard forked. For anyone as new, basically Ethereum that’s started by the Vitalik build run and the Ethereum foundation and they will work on the software in the first application that went on there was all the Dow Hub project and it was a glitch in the software which forces them to a hard forked.

So now the hard fork version is going on its own with Vitalik and the Ethereum foundation, in the developers that go along with it and then we have the original chain which is called the Ethereum Classic chain and it’s on its own over here, without a group of developers to work on the software and we have volunteers that popped up and came up and sort of working on it and Marcus Brown is one of those volunteers.

So could you talk a little about your background before we get into the software that you working on, Marcus could you talk a little about your background? What you were doing, how you got involved in the Cryptocurrency and how it lead up to you, becoming a core developer on the Ethereum Classic projects and I’ll mute my mic while you go do that.

Marcus: Sure, I don’t have a lot of time with Crypton about 4 or 5 years. I’m a video game developer by trade just left the industry a few months ago, I did that for a little bit over 12 years but during that time I discovered Bitcoin and surrounding late 2010 or so and did some CPU mining for the 5 minutes still do that. You want to pull all that good stuff, I started playing around with it and I really thought the whole concept of the philosophy behind Bitcoin was pretty amazing.

You had an open-source Cryptocurrency that anybody could contribute to and that anybody could use so that kind of you know that the firing before for Crypto so a few years later, a buddy of mine told me about Ethereum and I think later 2014 so Ethereum had barely gotten off the ground at that point so I took a look at it took a look at the yellow paper and there weren’t a whole lots there so I thought the ideas were cool, be able to run code in the blockchain and have it verified you know Rollin Oats but there wasn’t enough there for me to really get excited about it so I kind of put it down and then I started seeing more and more about it in the press.

At that point I started taking a look at it and saw that you know there was a lot of momentum behind it and I think it was in April or May this year, I decided actually start you know working on a smart contract I had some ideas or dabs something like that in my spare time and then after that I saw the Dow hack in June and you know I was the silent observer that point I hadn’t really engaged the community yet.

So I’m sitting there on all of the blogs and I read it you know seeing all the stuff go down and it might be kind of upset because I didn’t understand how you could have the blockchain and have this thing, that’s been lookup a pawn in 4/5/6 years now but then you decide to just change it on a woman and yes that was a lot of money involved I do not really need to go into, all specific of that because there are arguments on both sides but to me it’s more important for a blockchain to be a blockchain.

Especially one like Ethereum where code is involved and so once hard fork happened I thought you know the losing fork was dead, based on all reports I’ve been seeing it at debit coming out so I kind of you know the swallowed it, you know that it’s time to go ahead.

I still want to develop for my theory at school but I got to go ahead and buy this and then go for it and it was a few days after, talk about classic and I took a look at it so I was slight jump in and then involved was really excited that they touted immutability first of all things which is the core aspect of a blockchain and I saw it as an opportunity with my software development experience that comes in and contributes any ideas in skills or whatever I had toward the community. So I’ve been here ever since.

Tai Zen: So my first question is for the people that are not technical out there, they’re listening. So when designates you as being a core developer if I go in there and add code to the Ethereum Classic project or Leon does it or Chuck does it. Do we automatically become a core developer? What designates you as a core developer? What is a core developer mean?

Marcus: Early on we used GitHub to where all our code is common on issues and things like that so earlier on one of the earlier for developers I guess the original core developer, his name is Gravity, that is the synonym, we don’t know what his real name is but he basically post it and said hey we’re looking for volunteers to come in and hit the spread up and let us know what it is you do and how you can contribute and it will bring you on.

And I was pretty much it so when I saw that I’m like okay well coming from the game industry, I did a lot of work with C plus, I thought that walking I can help out with the C plus Ethereum but then I also saw that there were opportunities for a bit more organization and there are some things to the classic protocol and directions that we can move in that I can also be useful.

That kind of came, organically I would say but yet to answer your question yet, anybody who jumped in and said they want to take this thing over if they actually went and did it then we consider them part of the development core.

Leon: So Marcus, right off the bat I have a question so who has commit rights to give Ethereum Classic at the moment.

Tai Zen: This is just real quick before you answer that right could you explain what the commit rights are, so people know what it is.

Leon: Sure, give repository is the permission where you can control, who can actually save something to the repository to make a change to the repository. Every repository has a list of people username that can actually make the change so that’s why I asked that question because I don’t know how you have your gift repository setup but I use the gift on the daily basis as well and not everybody can merge, not everybody can commit

Tai Zen: So let just me explain so for the non-technical people so basically they Github is where all the software code is stored at and only a small handful of people have permission of golden update that software that the community trust or that everyone trust these are authorized, people go in there and update the software without putting bugs are viruses in it. Okay so are you one of those people that are that have permission to go in there and update the software

Marcus: I am and once you’re accepted as a member of the development team, you get access rights given to you to become one of those so I have the ability to create new source code repository and I also have the ability to commit to any existing I’ve been given accessed too. So it’s actually it’s on the case by case basis.

Leon: So who has the right to approve like who is the administrator of that repository, who has not just the right to change it but also can give right to other people

Marcus: There’s two off the top of my head that I’m aware of without pulling it up there is Gravity, who started the GitHub organization that we work on the right now and then there’s a guy who goes by the name of Split. He also has full admin access to that, I’m not the one who has full admin access

Leon: From a code perspective I would say those two people are kind of like in charge code for a better word, there are the ones that are really in full control, the repository source code for Ethereum Classic, is that fair to say?

Marcus: It’s fair to say of that organization that man is that code you know we talked about getting up so it’s the open-source you can fork it now so long, they don’t take a repository down, Danielle.

Anybody can fork it but as far as who is in control of what is termed the Ethereum Classic as of now, those usernames and we know who these people are? Or are they anonymous?

Chuck: Does by Igor and I do believe Eric also have admin access to the GitHub and you have to remember also that there can be multiple clients that connect to the Ethereum Classic Network, they don’t have to be just through Ethereum Classic GitHub.

For example, S4 parody also connects to the Ethereum Classic Network and that’s run by Gavin Wood, who used to be part of the Ethereum Foundation, who started his own company with the parody and so anytime we have to hard fork we also have to get the cooperation of S4 parody

Leon: The Ethereum Classic, that’s the reference for lack of a better word, official or unofficial reference client so I’m just wondering where just for the organization right after what I think it is used between those who are the actual people involved with

Chuck: You can definitely say Gravity and Split, the administrator, there are also a lot of core developers that are closely involved with them that talk with them on a daily basis and I just want to make the point that it is to centralize that they don’t have full control over the Ethereum Classic Network just because they have control over they GitHub. We won’t be hard-forking in the future unless we have a really good reason to like getting rid of the difficulties

Leon: Okay cool and that was my question.

Tai Zen: So did you finish that question, did you get your answer lie on about who has rights of the GitHub?

Leon: Right off the bat that’s the first decision, that means we made it who can actually when there’s a bunch of pull requests and somebody has to make a decision I mean sure, we can debate it you can taste decentralized but at the end of the day, somebody has to click a merge

Marcus: That’s individual repository basis about but I also like to point out the fact that in this is come up before and all the development for discussion, again it’s Github, I can fork code in my own repository or any other developer and make moves on it if this is a blocker in plays whatever it still get that coat out there, we’re not necessarily constrained, about that, well limited higher key that’s in place there.

Tai Zen: So how much code are you committing to the project? Are you doing that on a frequent basis on a daily basis or how’s that work?

Marcus: Not as much as I would have late because I’ve been busy with a lot of different other things in the community but I’d like I said I volunteered for the C plus Ethereum client and I would say out of the major clients it’s probably the third most popular one.

So I’ve been merging in changes they’ve gone through a lot of restructuring on the Ethereum side so I’ve been taking those in as I can but then a lot of the other stuff I do, great news, discussion threads on GitHub for us to talk about issues that are coming up like remaining proof of works by freezing a difficulty claim or other things other direction than we might want to go on that where we want GitHub to be more public, discussion point for that.

Tai Zen: Okay so just the audience here understands the difficulty bomb I heard you mention it at the Phoenix Bitcoin Meetup you just spoke there, I just recently a few days ago and you discuss the Ethereum Classic difficulty bomb. Could you just explain it like in layman terms for the audience, what that means?

Marco: Let me know if I get to 10. Basically all of the Ethereum Classic notes that get together and communicate and agree on the new blocks that are coming into the chain. There’s a difficulty ramp up based on the difficulty is like how hard the Cryptographic puzzle is that a minor has a soft in order to win that block and get those coins out of it.

As more miners jump on and a hash rate increases and its time goes forward, that difficulty will increase and around the frontier homestead days of Ethereum they put in, what’s called the bomb which basically after every I think 300,000 blocks to sold, it all exponentially scale-up that difficulty marker.

So basically what that means is over time it becomes to text longer and longer with current hardware to confirm and create these new blocks and after a certain point it become so long to do, that’s impractical to mine on Ethereum.

Tai Zen: So what was the purpose of putting this mechanism inside the software? What was the purpose, who put it in there and what was the purpose of it?

Marcus: The purpose of this bomb as putting in by the Ethereum was basically to give them sort of a hard date when they want to move to a new consensus algorithm and as we can see right now from all the press, it’s looking to be Casper which is their proof of stake algorithm where you stake a model either and then that’s used to confirm new blocks as opposed to using a minor to solve these puzzles so they gave themselves a deadline essentially.

I want to have that in place so, on the Ethereum Classic side, we are hard fork, we do consider ourselves, Ethereum but we’re going in a different direction then the Ethereum foundation, we have an opinion that we want to keep the minors in the fold, these people have invested a lot of time, hard work, money and etc.

They are the ones who keep the network running so our idea is, we call it diffusing or we can call it freezing the difficulty bomb so that we can extend that time even further so we can come up with something that works for minors and works for health and security of Ethereum Classic Network.

Tai Zen: No, is that done in an effort to save the Ethereum Classic, block the chain by bringing all because when that time comes, are you guys doing that just for the late or you guys doing that so that it gives an opportunity because all the miners that are on the Ethereum hard fork chain as soon as they implement the Casper mechanism then all the miners are going to be out of business so you guys doing this on purpose to bring all those miners over to work on to secure the network or DM classic is that the goal?

Marcus: That is part of the goal, yes that’s definitely part to go and we talked about that a lot. What’s proof of stake happens when Ethereum, this will be a lot of people out there with a lot of hardware and we don’t want that to be a wasted investment and useful for them.

Especially since that gives us the ability to develop our own consensus algorithm or we even can take a look at where Ethereum goes up proof of stake and kind sort of using them as like a proving ground. It says okay well is proof of second actually working for them, the way they intended to, if it’s not then we need to keep going down the original way, supporting new miner and try to come up with something better based on top.

Carlo: If I cannot shine in real quick tie for a second, just something that I like to say like general audiences, people are on the main street in about kind of strategies work, applying for something like that I kind of I think it’s similar to drafting when in cycling your drafting behind your opponent to kind of conserve your energy and then push pass at a strategic point in the future.

So we’re waiting to see how things are going through the stage with Ethereum, the original Ethereum, it is necessary, us waiting around with our totaling, our thumbs, it’s kind of a different strategy behind at night I think we’re going in the right direction.

Chuck: I like to expand to on the difficulty bomb, one of the purposes of that was it kind of forces the community to fork because if you don’t fork, your face with this chain with a difficulty gets out of hand and it basically kills that chain anyway. So basically forces the Ethereum community to move over the proof of stake and because we’re not ready to do that on the timeline that Ethereum is doing it.

That’s why we want to freeze the difficulty bomb, push it back a couple of months back so we can debate whether or not we want to move to proof of stake or we want to move to a proof of work, proof of stake hybrid or possibly stay on proof of work altogether and there’s a good argument also that proof of stake centralizes power more so and Ethereum that it does on Ethereum Classic because you have to remember that one of the biggest holders of Ethereum is Ethereum foundation.

They hold over a million Ethereum themselves and I’m sure they’re planning to become one of the stakers themselves and that gives them a huge amount of power compared to the current system where the miners have a lot of so proof of stake moves a lot of power from the minors to the Ethereum foundation and holders.

Carlo: If I made 2 other views out there there’s also suggestions for proof of work, proof of stake hybrid which is another thing that’s being discussed along with proof of work and proof of stake so it’s not necessarily something that proven concept but it’s being looked into by people that are interested in, it’s among the discussion, how long it takes to work the proof of stake.

Tai Zen: So basically miners standing as you guys are gonna try to delay the switching over to the proof of stake so that you can pull the miners over to help secure the Ethereum Classic watching and then on top of that wait until seeing what kind of screw up or mistakes that the Casper makes in the proof of stake and then after that, take advantage of that and make the better one for the Ethereum Classic.

Marcus: Just like that, screw up or fail-proof of stake but it’s unproven and I know there’s going to be putting up into some test and things like that but I got to be honest as the current if you don’t read it or some of the other communication channels, they treated like a second coming in like this has never been proven before, the way that they’re trying to do it.

There’s an existing Casper implementation, that’s actually in use right now I think it’s the narrow isn’t it that uses it but the one that’s being developed by Ethereum hasn’t been proven. We don’t just want to jump aboard that without knowing, what’s all involved. It could be perfect and work flawlessly once in a super minute but it doesn’t make sense, blindly, follow that vision when we can create our own vision and still keep miners into the fold and productive.

Carlo: I also just like to point out to the viewers out there that I admire the Ethereum foundation for how much progress they’ve made and all the innovations that they made but it’s a point out to everybody watching or listening, it’s often the trailblazers that don’t get to enjoy the full fruits of their labor that innovation that they come up with a lot, the palm pilots of the world.

Usually, someone that kind of takes what was done and then expands upon it and tweaks it and perfects it, that really gets to enjoy the lion’s share of what goes on in the future so I think it’s important strategy were playing right now for the future success above our network

Tai Zen: For example, we talk to the creator, the founder of the waves platform. He was actually the original quick exchange or intern exchange before shapeshift came along. He had an exchange that converts I forgot what the name of it was, you remember Leon?

Leon: Coiner Mad, you know my first Altcoins, I got my first Altcoins from Sasha

Tai Zen: So Sasha was the one who actually quit the first intern exchange but it did not take off and then Erik Voorhees came along and kind of got that idea and built shape-shifting and took it to the next level so now nobody remembers who Coiner Mad clean them so that’s the long palm pilot example you just gave, Carlo.

Carlo: Many examples throughout the history of technology and innovation so we’re going to try to learn from history on that aspect.

Tai Zen: I think that is a pretty good approach where you guys sit back and wait and delay the difficulty bomb, switching over to a proof of stake and just wait to see what the outcome is when Vitalik and his team implemented on the Ethereum hard fork chain and then just implemented towards the game classic. Okay so do you guys have any other questions about that about the difficulty bomb issue before I jump to the next topic.

Human: No, I’m good

Tai Zen: When I spoke with the Leon in the past, we discussed when we were talking about the downward tackling there’s only a handful of people in the world that know the solidity language to do the Ethereum. Are you familiar with that? You said that you recently just got into Ethereum, how did you go about learning their programming language so quick.

Marcus: When I was a few months back in many respects someone are both JavaScript and will be Cossy like languages and something like C plus and Javascript was thinking like that so it wasn’t that difficult to pick up. It was mainly mapping it in my brain to how the Ethereum Network works, I would say it is the trickiest part of it, slit it is actually if you program before is not that difficult to get upon.

Tai Zen: I have to ask you this troll question cuz I even ask Leon if he was the down attacker. Are you Marcus Brown – the down attacker?

Marcus: No, I found out about the recursive attack against a down like maybe less than a week before it actually happens, it’s one of those things, all the news that’s coming out about Ethereum on a daily basis.

It goes by your radar you say okay well you know that’s the thing but I didn’t know what the down was at the time I didn’t know who saw huge, I don’t know they had this massive ICO when they raise all this money, no clue until the actual hack happen and that’s kind of winning

Tai Zen: So you go on the record to say that you are not the down attacker

Marcus: I can firmly swear on the staff of. I don’t know

Tai Zen: Let the blockchain records reflect that Marcus Brown has admitted that he is not the down attacker. Let’s move on here. How many core developers are out there like you, that’s working on the Ethereum Classic right now, do you have a number in mind?

Marcus: I have a shortlist, we have a list like 30 or so who actually have been given access to the GitHub organization but there’s some that are extremely active on a daily basis on a weekly basis and I would have to say that core developer is someone not who the program but they also can organize or manage a programming project or directed in some way.

Because I still understand the Global Hollow things working out pull together so with that being said the original core developer is Gravity, we haven’t seen a lot of him lately but we don’t know is it, could be really busy with life that’s how life works.

We have doctor Sarah, if you guys know he has been along in travel the globe, promoting Ethereum Classic in London, in Shanghai, it’s going down the Melbourne next, sorry we decide something?

Tai Zen: Yeah that’s the slide deck that you use was the same one that doctor Avatar is the same one that he used.

Marcus: Those lines, several came together but we all came together and achieve out and feedback, some of us about the Classic aspect and then some of us on the roadmap and some of the future direction, suffer the presentation of the game last week in Phoenix, I took the basic simply would have everything that we have come up with that has Chuck presenting and I had a few more things to it.

I got some more feedback from the community as well to make sure that I was on the right page with it as well so you can say that that slide decade is recycled that’s because we  know it’s got like a lot of good information about Classic I got started and where it’s going.

Tai Zen: It also helps to convey the same message to the audience so that everyone that’s involved in the Ethereum Classic community on the same page, on the same message

Chuck: Core developer I’d like to add

Marcus: Let I got it’s mine and then you can jump in with yours

Chuck: what is Gravity he doesn’t loss with guess and he hard fork that with from Ethereum. We have split Igor who’ve been working with what is Gravity very closely but don’t panic, it’s done a lot of good work for the community, he helped to pour over the Chrome extension for the Ethereum Classic wallet

Carlo: Tortuga as well

Marcus: Cordy also maybe together with spreadsheet, that actually shows the difficulty bomb, I’m playing spreadsheet form with the graph that lets us know exactly when that exponential curve started with the damage the network so he’s been very instrumental in that

Leon: You guys are volunteers, no one gets in hey I can do any of this

Marcus: No, I run the mine rick that I build specifically for the Ethereum Classic, I run the notes that help all 24/7, I spend right now comes with our works without any sort of conversation and that’s not my goal, it wasn’t. My goal was my expertise to see if I can help Classic.

Leon: So the discussion I have with last night is it’s no funding for Ethereum Classic, there was no ICO from financial fire power perspective. I would say that big disadvantage since the foundation has tens of millions dollars, I think I can get all the rockstar developers at least every second of fork

Marcus: Who did not have a foundation initially and didn’t have to move the dollars to contribute to the development was Bitcoin

Leon: But it became even things, but that’s what I’m saying that Ethereum and Ethereum Classic are come from the same thing I guess you can say your competition is Ethereum hard fork and they’re pushing and they’re at least from a financial perspective they’re more heavily armed.

It’s marketing and hot including developers, they can throw a lot of money at someone who they believe was add a lot of value which you guys don’t have the resources to do, that would be my criticism

Carlo: Sorry if I made really quick so what’s the forecast there’s since a lot of anger in the community, it was kind of like a negative sentiment, a negative tone. I think the fork really was kind of incredible thing that happened, we evolved from Ethereum into what we’re today which is we have all the principles that give Bitcoin value.

In addition to Ethereum technology and I think a lot of people started to realize that we started to pick up a lot of interest especially from China which is Pillar of what’s gonna be this blockchain moving forward. So I think the snowball has started and it’s rolling down the hill and it’s picking up a lot more snow is it goes you got commitments, Charles Hoskinson from IOHK input, output.

Hong Kong has been generous enough to bring me on board and commit me to just completely trying to help out the Ethereum Classic community growth so that’s a company right there we got BTCC we’ve got Chandler Glow we have Barry Silver.

We’ve got people coming out of the woods to support the real vision of a blockchain is so I do understand that Ethereum has an edge on us but I think we really involved into something very special and I expect a lot of contributions, a lot of funding to pick up pace relatively quickly, the next couple years it’s a lot of hard work it’s not going to do it itself.

But I think with hard work with laying the proper foundation and executing properly we have an opportunity to be something really special in the blockchain world and that’s a great community with god with doing a lot of work just self-organizing at this point so I’m expecting great things and we’re really excited about the future

Marcus: If you think about it, which you just said Leon if you’re subtracting the Ethereum Foundation out of the equation and starting from the same base but instead you’re placing it with the group of people who’re so passionate about seeing it through and wanted moving it forward that they give up their time and resources took to do that and that’s the Bitcoin similarity as far as you know how Bitcoin got started and benefits became you know wallet successful at the same time.

Those core developers of Bitcoin still doing their thing but they were getting paid or not now eventually obviously all of these Bitcoin companies form to get started and scoop up a lot of core developers and sorry can do nothing and that’s like a whole another topic or whatever and there’s a strong chance that will happen in the class of community as well as it continues to grow but I guess what I’m saying is that decentralize aspect of it.

We believe it’s like the power behind it because we have all these brilliant people coming in from all over and there’s no cheerleader sitting in the back and I don’t mean metallic I mean the Ethereum foundation who are guiding it in their own direction, we can figure out the best erection that the community decides upon and then start the move in that direction

Chuck: the funny real quick we do have a donation address on our website Ethereum, all we do have $11,000 worth the Ethereum Classic in that account so we don’t have any funding, we do have some funding and we do have a website coming up called Bandaname stepping developed by Avatar Sarah- one of our core developers, it’s basically going to be like a GoFundMe site, a Kickstarter for ETC project, it’s currently in beta but let me tell you it looks really cool.

I’ve seen it I tested it we even have some commitments for funding already for projects what’s the website goes by so if you totaled all the funding we’re probably talking about already 40 $50,000 that’s being committed to the Ethereum Classic project and there are some big funders that are in talks with the core developers and we getting that going so we’re really trying to dispel the notion that we don’t have.

We’re getting it started, we’re building the foundation for that. We’re trying to make it to centralized and as open as possible that’s why it’s taking a little time to get off the ground and I’d also like to mention that Marcus is helping to develop multi-sig address for donation as well and we’re going to have ten signatories and took any of the funds.

Seven of the signatories will have to agree for any of the funding and other five of them are core developers, the other 5 are hardcore volunteers, including me I should say and we all wanna see ETC succeed and even the down attacker has donated a thousand ETC, I don’t know he’s doing it to support us or to tease us

Leon: If ETC succeeds, he will make a lot of money, more money than any of us

Chuck: It should be stated we aren’t soliciting donations from him though, it’s honestly a headache and we have to deal with

Leon: But actually beside the Ethereum foundation who also own ETC because they own either before the down attack actually be the biggest stakeholder in Ethereum Classic I would say

Chuck: That’s one of the reasons why moving to complete proof of stake consensus mechanism might not be a good idea for Ethereum Classic because we have a very big holder, along with the Ethereum foundation we have the down attacker holding a lot of Ethereum classic and he might not have the intentions.

He might use that really thick stake of Ethereum Classic for his own purposes to try to get rich as a more so that’s a really good argument why we should stay on proof of work and I’m a big advocate of staying for proof of work.

There are other methods to scale, that’s no Bitcoin is doing the lightning network so I think there are other ways we can scale the network be environmentally friendly and made Ethereum Classic useful for all of mankind

Leon: All right, what’s the next question you have on your list?

Tai Zen: No, it still goes back to this when Chuck talks about the Ethereum Classic community have 11.000 or 40 50 thousand even it has a 100 thousand in fund, I mean that’s just a drop in the bucket compared to the Ethereum foundations, $1,012 million but they have available or however much they have, they have in the millions I mean like you can only work for free for so long Marcus.

I mean like maybe not you but there are other developers that you know everybody has to pay their bills and things like that you know so I mean what is a fundraising mechanism I mean like you mentioned Carlo that Charles Hoskinson – the former founder of Ethereum and all these big names.

Are they contributing funds to the development of the Ethereum Classic especially like someone like Berry Sober, he has a big position on Ethereum Classic, is he contributing to help pay for the development or anything

Carlo: I’d like to say as far as rules are concerned in capital pools are concerned, I think more discussion needs to be fully understood, the pros and cons of the pool is going forward also as far as proposals are concerned, IOHK is going to be putting fork for the proposal the next few months.

And I expect a lot of proposals to come from the community about what direction to take Ethereum Classic moving forward and all proposals will be judged on their merits and the community will come to consensus on what they feel is the best direction moving forward so I think what it’s important to have that competition of ideas to come to the best decision for a network possible.

Ten ideas that having a difficult decision is a great problem to have instead of just to one bad decision, one bad proposal, 1 good proposal and then you have an obvious one. I think having multiple proposals in the competition is a great way to move the network forward into the future

Marcus: I’d jumped on that so right now we’re actually working on developing the code, putting into test, freezing difficulty bomb, the second piece of code and I’m working on this one of myself is starting purpose and then it goes to code but some of the proposals that I’m working on is a way of mitigating is replay attack, we haven’t talked about that yet I’d get into it but basically we want to prevent transactions that happen on Ethereum or transaction on Ethereum Classic from being propagated across the 2 chain.

They shouldn’t be able to talk to one another because there’s a fork, unfortunately, the way that the fork was developed by the foundational developers, they didn’t call that in there so we had this problem. Ethereum Classic decide that it take that on and do it in the right way because we don’t want to see people losing their funds to this replay attack.

We also like we’ve been saying over and over again with these miners to stay with us to move resources over to ours to make our network stronger for the foreseeable future until we come up with some purpose that we implement in test to go from there so that’s part of the message that we’ve been actually spreading to potential investors during this time.

The timetable on the freezing the difficulty bomb, best accelerated in the past week and a half and after I gave little things to a small audience or whatever. We’re trying to get the message of classic out into the people who competition investing to and some of that includes some of these businesses are being built on top of the Ethereum Classic as it stands there’s at least 3 that are in active development and there could be more.

The course is a couple of companies also support for the Ethereum Classic early on but I’m saying out of the core development group, all of the core development team it’s 3 new companies that are forming that their sole mission is to develop on top of Ethereum Classic or to build that chain and attract more investors,2 of the show that hey this chain is moving forward in a different direction and it’s going to last, it is going to be here for quite a while

Tai Zen: So I mean this might be an amateur non-techie question but what is the Ethereum Classic and Ethereum hard fork of the same chain. Why not just wait for the competition, they come up with the Ethereum hard fork, why not just copy and paste it into the Ethereum Classic.

Marcus: I’m sorry could you repeat that

Tai Zen: Okay so the question is there’s a lot of word on the street that you know you can just simply take the code that the Ethereum foundation and metallic with his team creating for the Ethereum hard fork and just copy and paste it into the Ethereum Classic, is that doable, is that possible, is that not possible ?

Marcus: Well the code that they develop for the hard fork we decide neutralizer clone those clients that they had developed on and we took that bit out because that sounds like a whole thing want to stay on that original Ethereum chain. As far as any other code, my opinion is that if it stresses the Ethereum Classic we should be cherry-picking and taking code as the developed.

I’m not saying that we’re just going to copy and paste everything from the Ethereum side because we also have contributions that can benefit them as well while the remaining proof of work until they hit that point, as we said earlier we’re going to wait and see when they chop your codes in their next work for proof of stake and whatever the features that they decide to implement at that time.

We’re not going to just pull that in and run with that, we’re going to continue to move with freezing the difficulty bomb, I can’t seem to stay on proof of work until we can come together and figure out a reason why we wouldn’t want to do that anymore

Tai Zen: When did you say the due date is for this difficulty bomb that needs to be addressed.

Marcus: Ambitious plan right now is to have something implemented in test before the end of this year, as far as national day for hark fork we don’t have that note down yet but we s will rank models that spreadsheet I mentioned as other people who have been looking at some more technical issues such as that glow.

But you don’t really need to get into here but basically in effects, miners abilities to miner GPU hardware so there’s a lot of stuff but we come together in the last of the week celebrated because we understand that it looks like it doesn’t matter how many volunteer developers that we have.

It looks like we’re not doing anything, the people, they’re going to walk away and lose interest so it’s critical for us to show them that we can come together after the centralized team and pull our resources and get the stuff done in a timely fashion so this is basically at right here this is our trial by fire

Carlo: May I jump in real quick for a second. Someone had come over from the Bitcoin talk foreman also read it and they had a couple of questions about the bomb cuz it discusses quite a bit of work done quite a bit but they felt that would be important for us to make it clear, not just here but also on the forums.

Number 1: we have a plan for the bomb, number 2: the only thing that’s going on with the bomb is that we’re deciding whether we’re going to defuse it or delay it so the bomb we just want to say in phatically it has been taken care of but the only discussions are ongoing now, is just the delay or diffuse and there are pros and cons for both side.

A camp of delayed personally but just to get it out there for anyone who maybe thinks for wishy-washy on this whole thing. We’re taking care of it it’s been taken care of and now it’s just the layer diffuses on the question

Tai Zen: So here is the thing, when you first join the Ethereum Classic community, Marcus and this question is not just for you but for any core developer out there, when you first came into the Cryptocurrency scene and into the Ethereum community, if you do your research you would know that Vitalik and the Ethereum foundation all the strong developers are on the Ethereum hard fork chain.

What is going to, why would if there people out there listening right now that wants to help contribute to the Ethereum network, why would they choose classic over the hard fork

Marcus: Yeah that’s like a really good question

Tai Zen: Cuz let’s say I’m the developer, I come into the Ethereum community for the first time and I see this, don’t I want to play for the thing that is the original founder by Vitalik on there. Why would I go with the team is unfunded, unorganized and things like that I’m just looking for the advocate here

Marcus: First I would say that we’re not unorganized, we definitely not that, we’re just centralized but no we were not on the list, not just people scattered doing their own thing, we come together on the core issues to move those fork.

But I guess the question I would ask is how much do you trust Vitalik and the Ethereum Foundation based on what happened with the down fork, but a lot of the media that came out after that some sort of the attitudes that they become display after that even happen.

After that what we talked about it was $70 million when that heist hit right. Nobody like had any repercussions whatsoever, the only repercussion was the forked itself but if you’re a developer you looking at both it’s going to depend on your philosophy. Do you think that you want to jump into Ethereum that’s run by Vitalik and the Ethereum Foundation and maybe not have biggest voices that you think you might have some really cool proposal ideas color that you want to go forward with?

Well there’s a whole bureaucratic shame that you got to go through in order to reach those people, on the Classic side you can jump in and say hey I came up with this really cool thing that will help Classic or this adapt that I want to build and maybe you got some support on this and get heard and seen as supported a lot quicker.

I can’t say this with certainty but looking at from the outside after the down hack happen and it definitely seemed like Ethereum Foundation is not that connected to the actual development community, the ones that aren’t part of the Ethereum Foundation.

It’s really connected because we are that community so anytime somebody comes in with the question: Hey I’m trying to get this going I want to go adapt BTCC can you help me out or I want to volunteer to contribute in some way, we’re right there helping along and bring them into the fold so those are some of the things that I would look at as a developer do I want a bigger impact.

I understand it doesn’t have the funding that Ethereum Foundation has but is your philosophy that the rewards will be further on down the line or are you going to try to see if you can get part at funding and get on board as the Ethereum foundation developer where you might not have as big as the impact cuz their past is very clear at this point I think we want to see some more of it, this coming week at a Defcon 2 where they’re headed but I don’t know that a brand new developer coming in can really have much sway arm input there

Leon: Okay so they are already doing the project on Ethereum right now so is there any effort to court those like Auger and some of the other more prominent Ethereum based projects and Hongcoin. Can you speak to is there any effort to target those because they’re running ICOs and they’re trying to put something in Ethereum.

Carlo: From a non-technical standpoint, from a pure strategy standpoint, from a pure capitalist standpoint, I think I have kind of succeed answer to your question. So you have these platforms, these apps that are being on Ethereum and you got this other network which is Ethereum Classic.

Now if developers have some sort of inclination towards Ethereum for non-capitalist reasons, someone else is going to come in and decide to do something with your coat or with your idea on our network, they don’t do it themselves so if they have some sort of bias that isn’t just for the money or profit standpoint.

Someone is going to do that work for them to bring their idea or their interesting concept over to the Ethrium Classic Network so I expect for there to be some holdouts in the beginning but as our network grows as our community grows as we established the strong foundation for what if Ethereum Classic is going to be in the future.

I expect the holdouts to become few and far between and for the ones that still hold out I expect competitors of there to come in and sweep in and take a gap or where there’s a hole in the market and so that desire for that app on the Ethereum Classic Network

Chuck: We do have dabs that are coming to Ethereum Classic, we have mine box IO that’s going to be basically like Dropbox but for the Ethereum Classic chain and the reason that they have picked up their Ethereum Classic in because we’ve been very clear that we’re not going to hard fork the chain these ledgers we’re going to stay immutable and also we have

We also have the Demondown which is it’s planning to be like a down for the darknet market and as you’re talking about Leon, the darknet markets are a huge market space and if you get to the trunk of that with your blockchain, you talking about lots and lots of money blowing into your Cryptocurrency and that’s until endorsing the darknet market.

But the thing about Cryptocurrency is that word agnostic about what you use your money for Ethereum and Ethereum users have been very clear that they don’t approve of certain action, of certain things and so the host Anti-censorship has been thrown out the window they are fully on board with censorship of the blockchain, censorship of transactions that they approve of whatever is progressive, of whatever is you know these are ideals that are not set in stone.

They’ve never written down a social contract so what might be progressive today might not be progressive tomorrow so Ethereum developer and you’re thinking of which change to the development on, I would say listen with the Ethereum Classic what we’re going to do, we’re going to develop for the change, we’re not going to try and change it because we don’t like what you’re doing on there and every country every area has different morals, different laws, we don’t care about that.

If you’re breaking the law on your country well that’s your business but we’re developing a blockchain that anybody can use and as long as you follow the concepts, as long as you follow the rules with the blockchain, the code is why we’re going to respect that, your Cryptocurrency is your Cryptocurrency in your wallet and if a theft has been committed then you call the police, you call the authorities which were never done with the Ethereum community or the Dow Project manager.

There was a theft why do they call the police, they never even bothered and so I think that shows a double standard and then that’s going to make some vigilante and that’s not exactly legal either so there’s a lot of legal uncertainty is there and that’s why we’re not going up bothered with that.

We’re just going to develop the Ethereum Classic chain just like Bitcoin core developers, developer Bitcoin and they don’t worry about whether or not they’re going to fork Bitcoin for every halt, they didn’t fork Bitcoin, fork Mount doc, they didn’t fork Bitcoin for Bitfinex tax, didn’t do it for Guernica or something like that I forget it.

That was a big hack in the passage until this shape-shift tack and ridiculous to have an argument about that and then if you want they hard fork to change to they prove that there is too big to fail on Ethereum which also means that there are apps and applications or users that are too small to save if I lost Ethereum but I only lost a 100 Ethereum wow tough love, Vitalik tells me as a developer I don’t know if I want to be on a chain wear

Leon: Too-big-to-fail I think that’s why it was done because people would argue that everybody that was involved in the Dow was also part of the Ethereum Foundation at one point, the whole step on to all and all the slacking guys, they were former foundation members and all the curators were also part of the foundation so, therefore, Ethereum at the Dow was essentially the same thing. You might argue that it wasn’t but in reality because all the people on the Dow were also from Ethereum.

Carlo: If I may a real quick just about I have a general philosophy that Ethereum Foundation is going in the direction that they’re going and moving forward and I think Ethereum Classic real value proposition. I know that I’ve had this discussion on slacking, there are some on both sides of the argument but philosophy of moving fast and breaking things.

Ultimately with the type of software that we’re creating and dab and something like the Dow, it doesn’t mix very well as evidenced by the Dow and I think they’re going to continue to deploy this strategy in the future, this season can be the first Dow I don’t expect. It’s almost like they’re in a rush, trying to catch Bitcoin I guess they’re trying to catch Bitcoin market cap so they’re trying to build this $10 billion house made of sticks essentially.

When I think the Ethereum Classic about proposition what we’re trying to do a strong stable foundation with accessibility after security, security first then accessibility where is Bitcoin Foundation is putting accessibility in security later and that’s how you get the doubt so they’re trying to build this $10 billion house sticks.

We are laying the foundation $300 $600 million skyscrapers. Y’all know what the endgame is for blockchain technology and Crypto, we all know what Ethereum can do but now I ultimately think that is Ethereum Classic reach the speed, it’s not a $10 billion market cap, it’s not 50 billion, it’s not even a 100 billion.

I need Apple cell phones $600 billion company something like Ethereum Classic can link in the entire world, it can be applied to so many different facts of daily life, it’s just kind of something that you can’t even imagine at this point in time so I think with proper cultivation if we lay the foundation properly.

We’re going to build something that the world has never seen before. A firm belief that I have personally and I think a lot of others in the community have that belief as well and we’re working hard on it

Tai Zen: I like to ask what Marcus said about there are no repercussions, did there are no repercussions on what the Dow a team did anything like that for the down attack? And Leon and I have discussed several videos and we don’t believe that there are no repercussions, there will be some legal repercussions that come down the pipeline that there is because in the US they have SCC laws near the securities exchange commission.

The police for a securities and fundraising and things like that and America and I have similar law enforcement bodies like that in Europe in Canada, Australia, other countries and we strongly believe that there will be some legal repercussions to the down attack that comes down on the Vitalik in the team, in the Ethereum Foundation and that’s not the spread, further or anything like that, that’s just the nature of how the legal system works in America and in Europe.

You’re not going to raise that much money and then $60 million if it gets stolen and nothing’s going to happen. There’s going to be some FBI agents out there, there’s going to be some SCC agents out there to somebody from law enforcement agents out there.

I would not be surprised if they’re watching this right now as part of the investigation to collect all the evidence that they need and that’s something that I warned myself and Leon have worn many times to the Ethereum Foundation of Vitalik anybody else.

We don’t want to see anybody go to prison or anything like that or the mistakes on the Dow that would be recommended that you had legal counsel and be prepared, it will come down, if you guys notice when the down attack happened, DR. Gavin Wood who’s on their team I mean I have nothing to do with the down I mean he’s like that was the first disclaimer at everything

Human: He was the curator himself and then he’s sitting out there saying I have nothing to do with the Dow

Tai Zen: All these guys they never had action with the law, I don’t think any of these guys know cuz their nerdy technical tech guys, they’re not from the legal word and if you look at the video where Dr. Gavin Wood when he announces that he has nothing I mean he was a passionate and very vehement being a part of it.

And I would say that’s a huge issue man, that’s if I was a developer, that’s one of the things that I would say consider also is that do I want to be a part of a team that is facing legal issues coming up.

I mean if I am being criminal issues it may be just civil issues of life paid, you raised all this money will you combine with the country’s laws at that time so when you say that there are no repercussions on them They may not be any repercussions that’s why somebody getting fired, anything like that but when it comes down to legal issues that issue has not gone away, that cloud is still lingering over the Ethereum community, I believe.

Leon: We’ve spoken about this among ourselves that would risk is also why we haven’t added to our position, kind of hesitant to even though we believe in the vision we have to talk cloud called the Dow that’s hanging over the whole community and there’s at risk, also I believe also investors who potentially may invest or may invest more but actually stopping them from doing that

Chuck: Another invest in Ethereum Classic you know

Leon: Yeah I can see that that could be a reason because I can see there is a clear separation between no one in the Ethereum Classic is involved with a foundation that has ever been involved with Vitalik in his crew

Tai Zen: They except for a Charles Hoskinson, he was the former founder Ethereum

Tai Zen: So welcome Charles

Charles: Hey I’m sorry I missed the first hour of the conversation

Tai Zen: But here’s the thing though nobody in the Ethereum Classic community or development community or anything like that is involved with Vitalik with the exception of Charles of course but I don’t see that the connection because he’s been out of the picture long enough to wear it legal issues.

I can see them subpoena in my Brenda court and asking questions about it but I don’t see how they can involve him into the Ethereum Foundation order the stocking team with the Dow project any of that for a while now

Carlo: I just said a quick point about the legal issues that you speaking about before, just a quick hypothetical that let’s say hypothetically there were no legal repercussions or any repercussions at all for what happened with the Dow debacle. I think you said an interesting precedent there if that were to occur, there were no legal repercussions or anything like that.

Now you created a moral hazard with Ethereum with Ethereum Foundation where if you have adapted to deploy, all you have to do is make it big enough, people are just going to try to snowball these dabs to the biggest thing that could possibly have, if something does go wrong, they are going to fork it for you essentially so now people that are coding these dabs that are supposed to be mission-critical.

You’re going to have this in the back of your head instead because I’m not going to be as careful as they wouldn’t flash from the Ethereum Classic so I think going forward if there were no repercussions, you’re going to get a lot, let’s clean code deploy on Ethereum it supposed to platform like Ethereum Classic that doesn’t Billy Madison made few mistakes adjust my quick point.

Tai Zen: Since Charles is here I like to ask him to develop more of a development based Hangouts. You mentioned last time we were talking to you or Charles you mentioned that you were going to hire 3 developers from your company Input Output Hong Kong.

You said you were looking to possibly hiring 3 developers to work on the Ethereum Classic code full-time. How is that coming along? Is that still in the works or is that already in the works or can you update the community on that?

Charles: Yeah we engaged a couple of different recruiting firms and we also try to scope down what the skill sets looked like so we’re looking for people with round patches to masters computer science 5 to 10 years of development experience primarily Scala developer because we want to use the score X client is the base for the Ethereum wallet that was planning on building.

It just this type of developers to take quite a bit of time to find the other thing that we’ve been exploring academic partnerships, we had numerous discussions with a couple of different universities about building a verified piler as a partnership as well as researching so we’re executing not as fast as I’d like but our hope is to get somebody hired either by towards the end of September or October.

That’s kind of our goal for at least developer number one and then we’ll just keep scaling from there, 3 is kind of a floor we might hire more but we think we need at least 3 to be able to release a wallet client, any reasonable amount of time so I wish we could go faster but it is what it is now that we have Carlo.

We’re going to probably start posting some job apps in the Ethereum credit and other sources cuz it open application anybody who wants to apply for the position and would be happy to have them. We’re just going to be transparent that it does require quite a bit of experience mainly because we’re doing a very first principles research-driven approach so we’re starting with white papers and we’re working our way forward to the candidates have to be more than just developers.

They have to have some pretty strong experience in computer science field understand the white papers that we tend to write whether reasonable or not from engineering step that requires some foundation there with the candidates can prove they have that with or without potential than we’d be willing to give him an interview and talk to him and I’ll see what’s up

Tai Zen: And then will you be paying for these developers out of your company yourself or you’re going to raise money to pay for them

Charles: No we don’t need anybody’s money, we paid for the people we hire out of our own so we’re fine there, I’m at some point there needs to be capital pools that pay for the long term for Ethereum Classic, dab funds, marketing funds but we’re hoping to find a way to do that in the more decentralized compacity.

One thing we’ve been studying very extensively is the dash treasury model, we’re probably going to have a report on that within the next 4 to 6 weeks check on the 22nd. We have an internal presentation schedule for initial review of the system and we can figure out how to do something like that with Ethereum Classic.

That’s kind of the holy grail because you still have a pool of 100 or thousands or millions of dollars a year of development money set aside but if it’s not in the control of a centralize custodian, you don’t end up having the same higher structure foundation, telling us what to do and what they pay for

Tai Zen: Marcus earlier he talked about the difficulty bomb trying to delay or diffuse the switch over to the proof of stake out the rhythm. Last time we talked to you, you mentioned that you were going to release your research, your team has released research on the proof of stake I wear them that you guys came up with.

That was different from the Casper algorithm that Vitalik in his team is doing, is that something that you and other core developers for the Ethereum Classic community have considered to implement when the case it’s necessary to switch over to the proof of stake.

Charles: That’s a good question so we did release the paper and it’s 27 pages of dense math, it’s not terribly readable but it’s a good foundation so it’s an incomplete algorithm in that we make some assumptions that aren’t completely practical in a Cryptocurrency network namely synchronicity the few other things.

So the next step is to implement which we were doing right now we should have both a scholar and a rotation by the end of October early November and then we need to get a deeper understanding of how we’re going to handle things like economic consenting things like asynchronous scenarios something like that.

We are very confident that the algorithm works and secure. Now the question is should we advocate this for Ethereum or not, I think the important thing I understand that it’s a decentralized system and we believe in choice so the most important thing is to give people options.

You don’t just say hey guys I’m smarter than you and I’ve come up with this magic thing, take it, you’re forced to take it and still we need to do is say well if you want to do proof of stake this is what proof of stake looks like and these this is what the technology has witnessed what you get in this is what you have to give up for it similarly this is what you get with proof of work, this is what you have to give up for it and they have a discussion and you see which side the community likes to go with.

The big thing the big reason why people want to go down proof of stake area there’re 2 reasons. One: it’s kind of change the monetary policy to make it slightly more desirable from an investor perspective, this is not different than proof of work you could certainly do that, you can change the monitor policy.

Two: smart contract validation time, it seems that there are maybe better ways of reducing validation time in proof of stake and proof of work, there’s plenty of new things we could do to reduce the smart contract verification time with proof of work-based system and there’s already some ideas there.

So I think we need to have a discussion about it what we’re doing is just providing the foundations of that discussion, these are different approaches you can take, we’ll do some applications and we’ll get it up to the core developers of Ethereum Classic decide which one they like, let the community made the decision

Marcus: As I said earlier and Carlo gonna hit or miss 2, if I developed their proof of stake and they put it on a test, we’re looking at the same way that we’re going to look at it Casper that’s going to come out from the Ethereum Foundation team so it’ll be the same thing I will put it up the paces and judge it on merit as it stands as we said earlier.

Our plan is this to remain proof of work, and that was also a little bit earlier we don’t want to be fooled rushing in, we want to address the most pressing issues that we have in front of us but at the same time, the future we want to make sure that we are all on the same page, I’m moving in a direction that we think is beneficial for there in Ethereum Classic as a whole.

Charles: This is the hard thing guys, I mean ecosystem in this lots of moving components and you don’t pick a consensus algorithm blind, you have to consider the stakeholders you have to consider the long-term economic impact of it, you have to consider what network apology is going to produce and this is a systematic effort that the core of the Ethereum Classic absolutely right, you don’t rush it.

So there are immediate things that do need to be discussed like the difficulty bomb and replay attack because you think the fact that was quality and diminish the network’s ability to carry out its mission but longer-term things like treasury model, how you’re going to handle smart contract computation you have the luxury of time here, you can really take your time, they should, I advocate that. Personally I support some form of proof of work, proof of stake hybrid.

I do like proof of work and I think it’s a good differentiator from Ethereum which is 100% set to go to proof of stake. I will also point out that Ethereum foundation seems to be underling unwilling proper documentation on Casper which has been tremendously frustrating they seem to lot of good work and they have put a lot of effort into this but yet they don’t want to release a white paper for some reason.

The contrast we released complete motion because we felt it would start a good discussion and it’s important happy discussions before you blindly march on the road, you can’t think you’re perfect and eventually going to figure everything out.

And then come down from the mountain top with the tablets and say you are the 10 commandments of decentralization in follow these things instead of say this was my idea and this is pretty good form, let’s talk about it and see where it goes. I sent the Portuguese sweet following, we think that the system could be built this way

Tai Zen: Okay so what were big concerns that I saw and Leon saw and others in the community saw and some of my friends who are invested in Ethereum Classic. It was a risk to us, there was no development, there was the key issue that no development on the Ethereum Classic chain.

From your perspective, Marcus and you answer first and also Charles. Do you guys feel right now that I don’t know how to look at the GitHub and tell how much work is being done on Ethereum Classic but you guys are involved in that, do you guys feel that there is adequate development right now on the Ethereum Classic software?

Marcus: Definitely, there’s been a couple released our version of cats does target specifically for Ethereum classic. There have been no less than 4 block explorers that have come up that are specifically for Ethereum Classic, at least 2 wallets that are browser compatible that run in the browser.

They let you create your own Ethereum Classic wallet and sign transactions and send them over the network to send money back in forth and then as I mentioned earlier this there are some other companies that are forming on top of it from core developers, I’m included in that group.

I’m working with another Ethereum Classic advocate was starting a bomb company to promote and develop resources specifically for Ethereum Classic so there’s been developed on the classic from almost they want.

Unfortunately, I was not of the Fudd, they came out of that, out of that group. There’s been a lot of drama that’s ongoing, it’s a little bit irritating for me because as you put it like a nerdy developer, I just want to write code and get shit done, I don’t really want to be embroiled in the drama that doesn’t actually move things forward.

We have people on our red who are constant downvoting every single post, every post that might be positive about Classic or they start petty arguments about should the Ethereum foundation takedown Classic because of the trade market and things like that and It doesn’t slow us down at all except that it causes us kind of address those issues as they come up but we’ve been moving forward the entire time

Carlo: Sorry, can I put it a pretty cleanly actually Colibri has started coming out with a weekly development report, you guys can find that for anyone doing right now, you can find that on Ethereum classic, Reddit and also one of our slack, more than lucky.

So yeah they come up with featuring a lot of the developments that are being made in Ethereum Classic every week so that’s a great idea that I’m going to be working with Seth on and with other community members and I think we really got a lot done in just under a couple of months.

We got to really dedicated community, we self-assemble to accomplish a lot of things but it was just so much going on that I advise anyone who really wants to see what’s going on with Ethereum Classic, check those weekly updates that are going to be posted, we’ve got a couple up already and look forward to better

Charles: So yes for my two cents and I’ll put it in I think that Marcus and others have done a really amazing job and in very short period of time ,getting shit done, extremely impressive and it actually reminds me what a core team did in Ethereum when we were originally bootstrapping so It’s really exciting from that expect. I think the problem here guys is said there’s unrealistic expectation has been put upon Ethereum Classic.

Hey you guys have any capital pools, you’re just all volunteers, you just put in your own blood sweat tears in this, go immediately compete with $20 million Juggernaut that has a $50 million proxy company in Brooklyn and it’s been around for two years and within a week, deliver software on par and completely authority road map.

That’s like saying hey let’s go fork Microsoft, ship a new version of Windows next week you just can’t do these type of things so for the immediate things that needed to be differentiation with I have a legitimate strategy for doing things like diffusing difficulty bomb, Ethereum classic will be killing it, they did you a great job and I’m very impressed with this.

The long-term things don’t need immediate development ever, they don’t need to sit down and come up with a nuke census algorithm today or a solution to scalability problems today or in opinion philosophy for privacy, an economic today.

The point is that our value proposition is that we don’t do these things in a brushed matter, we do these things in a systematic and disciplined matter and an inclusive manner, it doesn’t require a central authority to come down from the mountain top and we will get the talent and the capital necessary within the 3 to 6 month time horizon to be able to tackle these problems relatively systematic matter.

That’s, for now, we have the developers we need I’d say to get stuff done and differentiate the chain enough to make it viable and I’m very happy with the progressing I’m seeing and there are certain things that obviously need to be accelerated.

We’re going to try to contribute to that as well as others. But overall for being 2 months old, Ethereum Classic is one of the most impressive Cryptocurrencies in the community I’ve ever seen of any community. Guys, we’re basically like pointing into the soul in terms of scaling community. That was really cool.

Tai Zen: What does the word on the street about this branding issue is this something that is you know in this more for you, Charles because you were one of the founders of Ethereum like one the original founder.

I mean what is this issue with the branding issue that people claim that the Ethereum foundation owns the Ethereum brand and logo and stuff I thought it was an open-source project that you can use Ethereum any which way you want

Charles: Well you know things like clinics are opened source projects but they’re still do involved some intellectual property and general when you all trademarks some IP gives you the ability to kind of control the project so the question is will the Ethereum Foundation assert that the trademark they own for which one is some way of violation.

Argues of that is some way of violation their trademark, expensive good writing what would you think was done by a lawyer and I’ll dig it up and post it would say that even if they did it would be pretty period wouldn’t be able to do much those other people say they haven’t properly treated the trademark and so if they try to enforce it they might lose it so it’s a big debate.

My broader point was, do we feel as a community there’s enough differentiation by simply calling ourselves differentiation by simply call yourselves in Ethereum Classic, in the long-term going to confuse. I take a neutral position, I don’t care I think it’s community decide what their name ought to be.

The Dark Coin Community decided to change your name to Dash, other communities have decided to keep the name the way it is. It should be their decision they’re doing the work in their work, they have that right. My only point is that we do have to understand that certain bigger entity like Apple or others will use dis-ambiguous to harm the movement uncertain small ways, it’s like rejecting apps.

We’re choosing not to invest in the platform because they perceive there to be uncertainty and I am not just going to take some time to over cop, it had to overcome that itself for different reasons and that we’re going to have to go through that.

We also do have to understand that if we start getting substantial momentum eating a big community gets built lots money gets put into the ecosystem and we start hurting Ethereum, they could become desperate ,can use any means that they have at their disposal to attempt to force differentiation so anybody who decides to use of theory.

A theory branding logos trademarks he sings in there GitHub repo in their project names they could be subjected to trademark enforcement and they just have to know that whether it’s justifiable or not whether Ethereum will do it or not whether they win or not is completely beside the point they just have to know that by adopting that without a clear policy on whether they are allowed or not to, they are subject to that kind of enforcement until there’s some discussion with foundation about that.

Marcus: I would like to point out you know I’m not a lawyer so everything I’m saying right now just please take with a grain of salt but there have been several projects that form that was related to Ethereum during its inception and as of release different dabs that use like Ethereum and the name and that, you have to kind of question like what’s the motivation behind saying that Ethereum Classic is wrongly using.

The Ethereum brand has been planning on pretty much everything, what any time anybody has used that name, they think that they definitely could obviously they can trade market come out and putting out claim against it but no what they really want to villainize salt even more than they have after the fork and do they have anything to gain by doing so from the step of standpoint as we already discussed.

We have the same chain and I want to argue that Ethereum Classic is the original chain because it didn’t work at that time but anyway, to move on from that, we discuss this for developers, the potential rebranding Ethereum Classic and something else. Right now it is not a top opportunity force if we do see some movement obviously of my legal.

Sandpoint, we’re going to get together and figure it out but until we feel that we differentiate in ourselves far enough away from Ethereum somewhere we can be considered our own thing. That’s probably not discussing become more active

Tai Zen: With what I scheduled this interview, not many of you guys enjoying some know this but I had to contact Chuck, John Tampa and they’re asking me who is the sum of the core developers work that would be able to speak in layman terms to communicate about the development of the Ethereum Classic and I took several weeks to get me in touch with Marcus.

And then when I got ahold of Marcus we have to figure out our to come up with we can do it today and it just so happened that it felt on today that market and I and Leon have time to get onto this interview and there were people that I thought about Ethereum Classic right before the developers conference in China and it just so happens that this is something when you guys seem to do these interviews.

These are things I’ve been working on for the last 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 weeks to schedule it and it happened all here at this time but besides the fact that that that people accused me of spreading by Ethereum Classic. Do you guys plan on having any time to Defcon or some type of similar conference for the Ethereum Classic community?

Chuck: We do have multiple meet-ups going around the world, we don’t have any worldwide conference but Carlo is in charge of the meet-up in New York City what is working closely with Avatar to get that going, we’ve had 3 really big meet up so far we had one in London I was kind of a kick-off.

We have one in Zurich Switzerland that was our second one that left by Avatar and we also have the one in Shanghai that was a 2 or 3 weeks before Defcon and we have a lot of big players including by BTCC.

I come to Shanghai talk with Avatar a gift presentation and by bio measurements, the meeting went very well, Avatar was then invited into BTCC, it sounds like BTCC might be in the works to make a mining pool for Ethereum Classic and I’m excited about the future of where that might be headed.

I don’t want to make any rumors or anything but Samsung has been hinting at the direction they might be going there very soon so for your investors who want to read in between the lines I think that’s something they want to look into.

Marcus: We actually do have a 1 or 2 core developers who will be at Defcon 2, I can’t speak to who love be talking to that still being worked out but they’re on their way to Shanghai right now I’m one up believe is already in Shanghai and then there’s another one that will be arriving there but I think is better if they come out on their own or maybe goes off through Ethereum Classic when that happens

Carlo: In reference to that Defcon for Ethereum Classic I think we’re kind of taking an approach that we’re doing with a lot of things that we do is first things first so what I’ve been asked with this pulling out the community so we’re going to try to be organizing meetups on the top Tech and population cities throughout the United States.

I’m also working with a lot of the other people trying to organize the meetups around the world using many social analytics tools as I can to figure out where are tops contributors are from around the world with people on six continents in Artica if anyone’s listening and they want to join the team let him know.

So as we get that core community built out, I look forward to having something along the lines of a Defcon but at this point through Ethereum Classic fashion we’d like to do first things first, build out the community ,set network effect going and then in the future something like Ethereum Classic would definitely on a map what it is in the future to put it up certify

Charles: I just like to point out real quick I ask a question like what is the official Bitcoin conference like every year was the official Bitcoin color

Tai Zen: It’s the one put out by the Bitcoin Foundation right?

Charles: It’s like there are many Bitcoin conferences in summer amazing that I really loved but at the end of the day conference no one speaks for Bitcoin so similarly I hope for Ethereum Classic the volunteers that seem pursue have a lot of different conferences some small and some big and some business-oriented, some deaf-oriented.

You have your favorite one but I don’t think anybody gets the right to say Defcon and this is the official conference unless they’re admitting they have a centrally controlled hierarchical Cryptocurrency left by culture personality

Tai Zen: Marcus are you in the other developers are you guys in contact with any of the Ethereum hard fork developers or communication with them or is that just strictly like a what call it said in one of his videos of the tale of 2 Cities, it just like Romeo and Juliet. How is this work?

Marcus: It’s not like that at all, we’ve gotten some feedback and encouragement from Ethereum foundation developers ,it’s all right efforts I know specifically for their C plus help as far as there is a huge project headed compasses a lot of different pieces excluding the solidity compiler itself so there are several Ethereum foundation members who someone in different obviously.

There’s some who don’t like that idea at all, she’s kind of thing to come out in the media but then there are others that they’re willing to see it along I think that’s called open source, Ethos that you can see I mean if I do something worthwhile the benefits them, there’s a reason why they can’t they shouldn’t take it and then vice versa.

Tai Zen: So there is some collaboration between you guys

Marcus: Yeah I want to say like anything official like we’re just like hand in hand I’m saying but that door is open and we can communicate with them and they communicate with us, some of them hop on our second time a time or they do you know that they hit us up another way and I was I would have to say for at least myself and several other core developers won’t have any issues with that at all

Tai Zen: So it’s not like they’re helping you on the side and they’re like handyman keep it hush-hush don’t live by Vitalik nor I’m helping you on this, does get the client or anything like that.

Carlo: I’ve thought about the relationship between Ethereum Classic and Ethereum Foundation, I guess moving forward not necessarily that we cooperating any sort of way or if that happens it happens but I’d really like for this movement.

I’ll put it on the record on video or else, the public, how to say it then I think what I’d really like, the direction I’d like for this to going is to be like a friendly sports rivalry where we agree to disagree but in a friendly way and we push each other towards new innovations, new highs, new technology.

Our competition between Ethereum and Ethereum Classic that’s really going to push both platforms and in my opoinion Ethereum Classic further then we would necessarily at individually or having an antagonistic approach moving forward so really like for it to be a nice friendly competitive rivalry that pushes us to new highs, going to the future and I hope people in Ethereum Foundation or from the Ethereum Red Adore whatever Ethereum oops there are going to have that same feeling that I have been wanted to be a productive relationship or moving forward.

Tai Zen: I’ll say this only had this to what you just said Carlo within the first 24 hours of the hardcore are within the first 12 hours a hard fork the Dow hard fork I mean Ethereum hard fork I know that Leon was looking at this situation very closely as soon as he saw that Polonius started listing Ethereum Classic.

Getting just a few hours Leon made the decision that you know what in the beginning, at the time of the hard fork, he and I were encouraging people to jump over to the new blockchain lego and focus on that but as soon as I went in a few hours after Polonius listed in Ethereum Classic you know Leon realize that this is not going to die away, legitimate chain.

It’s been alive long enough to where I guess you can say is that it’s been out in a while and it’s immune strong enough now that you just can’t kill it off so as soon as he said that he started investing in Ethereum Classic and he notified me and at the same time he was buying up an Ethereum Classic.

I was over here treating the people, trying to stay away from it cuz it’s a total scam and then he called me up and he said hey you know what we got to reevaluate this I don’t think it’s a scam because this is the original Ethereum Classic chain, it’s not doing that way, this is something that’s new why they didn’t realize.

Leon: Yeah it looks like Ethereum I said what let me think number 1 Polonius listed it which immediately gave it liquidity and number 2, 17% of the Ethers were invested in the Dow but that also means 83% we’re not and it was that’s the community could potentially get behind of it.

The people who did not invest in the Dow and had the philosophy that we’re talking about and that’s the reason why I said that hey Tai I think especially at the time when Polonius listed it came out at 60 cents, where all the traders and investors here and I said hey you know what one more exchange picks it up, it’s a double or triple from here

Chuck: I would like to point out too. There are a lot of over the founder trade and between the time of the hard fork, Polonia listed it and I think that’s what centralize Polonia in the first place they saw already, I saw already, multiple posts like I’ll give a Bitcoin for as much ETC you gave me you know 1000 or something like that or 2000 3000ETC for one Bitcoin and I think Polonia saw that man people are really interested in buying the coins

Leon: The other thing was the volume that was just being traded on Poloniex, I was saying to Tai hey man you know everyone is motivated by money and other exchanges are looking at that and they’re seeing volume being traded, they are going to pick it up

Tai Zen: The reason why I bring it up is to ask which Carlo to piggyback of a Carlo said is that in the beginning, Leon and I we are both against Ethereum Classic because just for protection, we didn’t want people to get scam and be protective but as soon as we stopped Polonius listed within less than 6 hours or 10 hours has been listed.

Leon was on board with it and we within like maybe 12 or 15 hours I was on board with it you know $1 and then you know he guys 60 cents and I am right below $1, we no longer favor one or the other, our channel based on helping people that little guy, make no profit from this Cryptocurrency boom so we’re always going to missional goal, always be in that favor and we don’t pick sides.

I would prefer the, we both agree with the message and the thought that Carlo just brought up is that we are not looking for Ethereum Classic to win or Ethereum hard fork to win. We want both of them to succeed, everyone can benefit from it so that the people that are working on the Ethereum hard Fork chain.

They support that blockchain in that community, great, we want them to succeed also because their success also will create that draft the fact that Chuck mentioned earlier the way they were pulling Ethereum Classic with it and then the success of Ethereum Classic if Ethereum Classic gets up to you know we can measure the success by the price of it, of the tokens if Ethereum Classic gets up to where it 10 or $20 of the price parity or close price parity with Ethereum hard fork.

They can only push Ethereum hard fork or even higher. Yeah, so we’re not here just so that the audience knows I don’t think anyone of us here on this broadcast right now what only Ethereum Classic succeeds or only 1 Ethereum hard fork to succeed.

There is a consensus, the market has stated that both chains are going to exist, that’s never going to go away, both chains are here to stay so we want both chains to do well because our people who are invested into Ethereum Classic and there are people that invest into the Ethereum hard fork.

Right now I only invest in Ethereum Classic simply because the cloud of legal issues has not gone away for Ethereum Classic, for me to want to put money into it right now.

Leon: I think we’re on the side of the investor.

Tai Zen: Exactly, we’re on the side this channel, Leon and I which speak up for the voice of the little guy on Mainstreet, not for the Wallstreet.

Leon: We were pro hark fork because we did not want our investors to lose money that’s why we work pro hard fork, we wanted it to fork because we had a lot a large portion of a raise so much money and if the hard fork didn’t happen, a large amount of the community will lose a lot of money and so, therefore, I remember being that we are in investing Channel.

We speak for our viewers and potentially a large portion of our viewers is that hard fork did not happen a lot of capital would have been lost by the people who supported it and you know the people who supported the Dow are also Ethereum supporter.

Did you know that that they are part of the community and for them to have to suffer that loss when they didn’t need to and that is our opinion about the damage the community, now I do understand the other side as well about how philosophical issues that you guys are behind?

And I support that as well too, I mean we also support that, I think what I’m trying to say is that we want everybody to succeed, there’s no Ethereum Classic succeed, it’s not a zero-sum game, the community is just everybody can win here

Marcus: a large number of core developers moving the same. There’s a lot of people who’s been stalking open the community and I believe the same, we don’t want, it’s not us versus them mentality that we’re running with here, there going to succeed in our own way because that’s we reverse more from their road map.

We’re going to amor some other things but we can we plan on providing the same amor value, hopefully, more value. There’s no reason why they can’t still cold exist because they’re still application what they want to do, they’re looking at things like replacing the logging to technical, the word computer machine that runs Ethereum, they’re already working on the next version of that.

We might want to look at something like that differently, you might want to stay where we’re at, goes back to our whole process but I’m saying they’re going to split 2 different things and it doesn’t make sense yes for someone dismiss 1 version the other, we definitely don’t feel that way

Charles: You guys remember that the Ethereum pretty magical in that now that it’s splitting the 2 it’s like the first what is a machine , what life you have all these events like should I marry this girl or not, should I go take this job in Atlanta or not or something.

There are the things you don’t do and you always ask well what if I did that, what would the world look like, what would my life look like, I think Ethereum has that now, Ethereum Classic and Ethereum diverge, Marcus and others are going to make different decisions than Bob and Vitalik.

And these other guys are and the chain will have different results, different application, different constituencies and we get real-time basically like a clone telling us how the world would be different if we live that life differently. It’s a very powerful thing and in itself is having both chains exist so come back to your original question have, Ethereum core developers reach down any of us.

I also talk the Bob, I like it off from time to time to talk to Vitalik not as much as I used to but I think over time as an Ethereum Classic diverges that the overwhelming majority of the Ethereum core development team on the foundation side both start feeling the Ethereum Classic as a positive thing.

Something that’s beneficial to have around and give some real data, what is systems look like and how they behave if you have different friends and through Extended Health Services as well for going back to Marcus.

What about the virtual machine changing. If they do this it’s going to tell us a lot about what those changes due to dabs if it makes a better secure, more efficient or perhaps it’s a bad paradigm and I am going to learn from that so both canaries in the coal mine were both getting that respect.

It’s just that the way we do things at least the way I’d like to do things that we’re more methodical and we focus on the social contract first and safety first as opposed to I move fast and break things philosophy, I think both are valid but you have to understand your community and what they signed up for and the people in our community definitely signed up for the formers

Chuck: On the Twitter, anytime there’s been an app or some type of product that apply to both ETC and Ethereum, I promote that as well and that goes for Ethereum foundation developers like for examples they add a card which is like these gift cards that have an Ethereum address and Ethereum key on it and you can load it up with either Ethereum or ETC and me retreated that for that developer and he was very thankful for that.

What we’ve been you know as long as there is development for both, I think and I haven’t had any push back from our community for doing so, they’re happy to work with, any dabs that work for both chains and I think we’re happy to work with each other because other than for the hard fork very similar, we all had the very same ideals you know before the hard fork and the world that working towards smart contrast and decentralize application

Tai Zen: One thing that you mention about the roadmap, Marcus so at least 2 the last points I like to cover before we wrap up here. 1 is if I talk about the roadmap, correct me if I’m wrong you know in my thinking here but call my non-technical perspective, non-techie here.

I’m looking at like Ethereum hard fork has Vitalik, he’s the genius behind me Ethereum and everything and I can understand that he’s got his team, he’s a doctor Gavin would be so I’ll recognize like superstar coders and I don’t know the community does not know you, Marcus and the other developers like Gravity and people like that.

In my mind I’m thinking okay even if you guys were going to Ethereum Classic, is it going to be a good blockchain, is it going to be a good software because he’s a good coder and a good programmer and a developer is working on the Ethereum project, in my mind I’m thinking like okay from an investor perspective.

I’m wondering like if Marcus and these other core developers working on the Ethereum Classic, are they as good of a coder as Vitalik and his crew over there on Ethereum hard fork.

Marcus: I can’t speak to you know comparing individual coding skills little things like that, you got people just different disciplines of a crossbow change but as Charles mentioned earlier, he’s pushing for influx of more academic research, that could benefit Ethereum Classic and what stuff like that I’ve read over the proof of work, proof of stake hybrid that Charles first proposed right in the beginning a couple of times.

And definitely something like within the realm of something I can implement and others in the community as well and together as we come together I can’t measure pound-for-pound. What somebody’s feelings versus somebody else’s but as we come together and talk about these issues from defusing the bomb.

Some of the monetary issues up that we’ve been addressing, replace attack and etc. It becomes pretty obvious that as a team we are on equal parts with the Ethereum Foundation team, it’s just again, takes a look at it, the decentralization aspect of his so.

The negative I would say to the best would be that we move a little bit slower than they do, we’re not at Defcon, we still don’t have a couple of what I might even be going out there but we get together, we schedule from it and we come together on this.

We’re about to start doing on discord developer calls where we actually get on the streaming and talked to one another, face to face, we can get some of these things figured out a lot faster and move on quickly but not yet so your point I think that’s all subjective, to say a lie stronger development team as it stands obviously the team that has Vitalik and more money and it’s been in the game Locker has a stronger team . There’s no reason why we can’t reset point.

Carlo: I will a real quick. Yeah there’s no doubt that with the pools of funds that they have, they’re moving faster so to speak but I think the important question to ask and I think the important question that Ethereum Classic addresses is they are moving faster but in what direction and that’s where we have a fundamental disagreement with them.

Is that the direction that they’re moving in quickly is not necessarily the best direction to be moving in and that’s just something I’d like to point out to your investors that the future of both platforms moving forward so I do see this as a rivalry doesn’t necessarily want this to be a confrontational type of thing.

But there are some fundamental disagreements we have been, we’re going to agree or disagree about the direction to move in so Marcus point we are moving slower but I believe we’re moving slowly in the correct direction.

I think in the future Ethereum Foundation is going to have to double back and come back the way they came in start on our path potentially and at that point then we’d have a really large head start, you have a lot of people looking at our platform instead of theirs at that point

Charles: With respect to who has higher quality developers, I think one of the biggest problems in the Cryptocurrency spacing is young Ethereum around the whole space, is a lack of appreciation for history, CI pro computer science from mathematics world.

That’s the world that constructive computer side as they gonna get a fund in paradigm, how a computer works and what capitation is so, for example, the functional program becomes very full, get everybody’s doing things is Java 8 and introduce lab and so.

Where did that come from, it came from like the 1950s so there’s this amazing historical precedent good ideas which tend to be forgotten and then rediscovered 20 years later put under new branding under a new name so I think the first challenge the Cryptocurrency face in general has is recognize that it lives in a bigger world.

One that has lots of brilliant ideas that Gavin discover and the job isn’t being so smart that you can revenge the world, connecting the past to the future. That’s what Satoshi did, he took 30 years of ideas back from the 1980s, working through decade-by-decade put them all together into beautiful sentences.

Similarly, my hope is to connect Ethereum Classic to traditional academic ideas and then we can kind of benefit I don’t think it would be good force to try to be the best VM builders in the world. We already have two that are exceptional, the Java version machine, the darknet machine, these things have.

Now I think probably over a billion dollars of combined research by them and 100million of developers in companies, billions of lines of code running. There’s an enormously good idea there with Ethereum Foundation that used to throw it all away ignore all of it to say what’s the builder on the virtual machine and come up with the better virtual machine.

The same for programming language design you know if you look at Haskell it was built by a committee of some of the most brilliant people in the world and they have 3 decades of work that’s behind it for that Ethereum invest a completely new smart contract language and what just hope it all works out and so forth so the first thing is you have to understand that there’s history and connect yourself the good ideas in the past.

That’s what all the great companies did as Steve Jobs did this with small talk eventually losing 2 objects of the sea and match this with Ruby, connecting to Objective C, there are good ideas there. The second thing is you can certainly move very fast but moving fast can be damaging and damage things. If moving fast means that every 2 years we are going to have a Dow.

How many of those you give for free, they only get bigger, they only get worse and most people that are the Cryptocurrency space who philosophically enter to get away from too-big-to-fail and to get away to the advanced word while we fuck everything up and then somebody has to flip a reset switch and let everybody out for a mistake.

I would much rather be in a slope methodical movement where we know that there’s a very low probability of a doubt of that than be in a fast-moving movement that has one happening every 2 years but doesn’t worry we’ll flip the switch and fix it.

I walked away from that system that the US dollar, that’s the Fiat system, I don’t want to go back to it and finally you know the other thing is your quality of the developers is proportional describe in the passion of community that’s why IHK we started with community manager, really trying to push the discriminant developers and because we recognize if we can get 30, 40, 50 mils of proof where we gonna get 40 Marcuses out of that.

And they’re all going to work together and they’re all going to build great things and that collective group is 10 times better than any Vitalik, any brilliant guy because we’re going to catch each other’s mistakes they’re going to know things that the other ones don’t know and together what that wisdom of that crowd is really going to do amazing thing.

Furthermore than I watch each other so if one of them goes crazy, there’s a lower ability that that guy is going to have the ability to wreck the whole network or particular agenda. The problem with really smart people, I dealt with them my whole life, is it?

They’re smarter than you and they can out thank you and they can fool you that’s completely true or eventually that they know more than I actually do where they’re more certain than they actually are and at least on the road to hell so in some cases having the top 1% or the absolute rock stars of rock stars actually can be a very negative thing.

And inevitably destroy your movement or make you very boutique so it’s better to federate, it’s better to connect him the history and looking good ideas from the past and it’s better to move slowly and methodically than other approach and it’s at least my opinion.

Tai Zen: Basically it’s safe to say that both of you Charles and Marcus you guys still that there’s sufficient talent in Ethereum development community to bring Ethereum Classic forward to moving forward and you guys don’t see that as a town at the moment

Marcus: No it’s already been demonstrated and we have actually picked up like developers as we’re going to meet up soon and Ethereum Classic is the philosophy and then we’re going we’re at and we’re going has been presented. More people have kind of taken interest, it is very different disciplines in, that’s the thing with Computer Sciences, there’s discipline people can jump in and contribute like Charles from the mathematics type.

I’m more of a level guy myself but what’s important is that as we come together, we were on the same page what happened since in the direction that we’re moving so even if it is moving a little bit slower we’re comfortable in the direction of where it’s moving, our community is comfortable in the direction it’s moving in and there’s no chance or panic or worried that we’re leaving off of a cliff.

Tai Zen: I’m going to put my own buddy did The Honorable Grandmaster on the spot because he’s a developer here. What’re the chances of you jumping on the development team of the year, I mean Ethereum Classic, I mean come on a man helping a brother out here man

Leon: I have to spend several months learning because my skill set is in the Apple world that has been for the last as you know I’ve been working on iOS apps for the last 5 or 6 years so I must have something to do with the building an IOS app, I would need at least minimum of a few months to ramp myself up.

Tai Zen: I mean if they’re willing if IOS development communities want to pay you high 6 income to code IOS I mean what is it going to take to get you to come over and learn Ethereum Classic encode on that man.

Leon: Well I have to first get away from my current job.

Chuck: Think about this way if you double triple your ETC holding stand working for yourself.

Leon: Tai and IAs you know we still work on this channel this is a reo job, we still work on this channel in our spare time after full-time jobs so we talk about come over the full time and financially how do we need to do that, we have that discussion multiple times so that’s something we’re working on.

Tai Zen: I think that this is a far-fetched fantasy but I think that you know since you got me Ethereum Classic early on you at the bottom, I think it goes up high enough I think you should be able to work for the richest man in Texas and I’ll come over and work with people the little guys like us on Mainstreet and help out Ethereum Classic community, that’s what I believe.

Carlo: I don’t think people are going to be coming to Ethereum Classic out of the goodness of their hearts I think we’re going to be a monster I expect a lot of developers to come over because there’s a lot of promises platform and also some people coming over out of the goodness of their hearts

Tai Zen: Imagine versus Vitalik, Nah I’m just kidding

Charles: So you can start on Tuesday right

Chuck: Final thoughts on the road map that we didn’t cover 2 things. 1: We are discussing a lot about the monetary policy with regard to Ethereum Classic, a lot of us do want to kind of slow down the supply creation of Ethereum Classic kind of make it a little bit more similar to Bitcoin.

And I think there’s a lot of promise or investors for that and then also there is a lot of talk within the developers probably in 2018 about making apps for inscription and privacy to make it similar to Monero because a lot of the Cryptocurrency space is moving in that direction.

Tai Zen: The last thing that I wanted to ask you Marcus and Charles CCR also before we wrap things up here guy is the roadmap. I saw the roadmap that doctor Avatar put out his lies that you were using at the Phoenix Bitcoin meetup Marcus, where has a road map out a short-term road map 2016/2017/2018 and then I saw the roadmap that Charles put out on his account.

When you guys put out the roadmap like this, how are you guys, how does the community or how does the core development community team decide which have to take and what are you guys when is that going to be official or is that never going to be official announcement as this is the road map for Ethereum Classic community.

Marcus: So we’re not at a point yet where we can actually say this is a solid bonafide road map of the Ethereum Classic community. What we have right now is the template, but actually the question what we’ve been doing is we’ve been talking to mining pool operators who been talking to investors, several that I’ve been mentioned on this chat and we’re getting feedback from them.

As to what matters most important and the number one right here is remaining proof of work for the time being until we come up with something else so we move that upon road map, it’s not a top priority. I would say replay attack mitigation is probably second from that but so that I road map.

Let’s just say that will release pieces of it as soon as we come together and we figure out what is next highest priority is but the focus is always on our community and what’s going to benefit them as it stands remaining proof of work by freezing this difficulty bomb is the best way that we can serve our community and that should be the next step when I road map. That’s why we’re trying to accelerate development on that

Charles: The road map proposal that I put out was a war of a discussion piece and this is some idea that I care about. I really want to start a conversation to see what the Ethereum Classic community down for. There’re 3 things that I care about: safety sustainability and decentralized evidence.

So you agree completely that it seems to be prudent to the brace proof of work, there’s a built-in constituency for that a lot of value that can come into the system if we do that second if we really have a good conversation about monetary policy.

I firmly believe that there’s going to be a lot of positive investment pressure going into Ethereum Classic so that’s like the short-term stuff that has to be done in the long-term though you really do have to think about how will we make decisions to change the platform and how we gonna get the fund things on the platform and if we’re not careful we’re just training an Ethereum foundation for an Ethereum Classic foundation so it’s extremely important that whatever roadmap present.

It has a tangible strategy maybe not completely flushed out but at least tangible road path to take that will eventually meet us to a place where we don’t have these power wells that will eventually control the platform. I think that’s probably the most positive and significant differentiator that we can hope for between Ethereum Foundation and Ethereum Classic.

Second, the safety thing I think is undervalued right now in terms of road map the Ethereum Foundation, they certainly have done an admirable work trying to make languages for developing safe applications and no doubt if Defcon they’re going to have a bunch of presentations about better testing tools and formal verification but I think the whole model itself was just on back works, they started with accessibility and that is tried super hard make it work better.

They should have started from safety and be much more coding about it and then gradually work hard at making at works accessible. So I would like to see whatever roadmap purpose, they have the particular approach in their 30 years of great work from people like Robin Milner and Hanson and others, which has practical testing in real-life applications and how to do this.

But again this takes times and this is something that would require some academic connection because skill sets are not commonly distributed among developers. You can go to MIT to get a master’s degree never touch formal verification, that’s like the top school so should we have an expectation your average developers going to have these skill sets?

The last thing sustainability to me extremely important that whatever roadmap we come up with is realistic from a funding perspective and realistic from a resource perspective. You know Ethereum has a problem that they broadcast themselves the world computer. I get accused of being a very egotistical guy but to be honest it says we’re smarter than Cloud Foundery.

We’re smarter than Amazon, we’re smarter than every other person, we eventually hold the Internet. By the way, we’re going to do this with small or slippery money in that small group of people.

That is a big cookie to eat, it’s an extremely big cookies so instead you should probably have much more realistic and meaningful goals like saying okay we have a new model of computation that we think is really interesting, these are the groups that we want to focus on like for example maybe Internet of things.

There is a clear need for internet of things having a computation layer so it’s emerging growing new feels or standard that have been said and there are not multi-million dollars if its structure set up for that so it’s very easy for us to compete that kind of space and by the way who are the people pushing IOT.

With raspberry pies and makers that whole revolution and those people look a lot like Bitcoin so it’s easy to grab that field, build some standard within that and actually be useful for those guys and then later on roll into a multibillion-dollar needs so I think you have to pick and choose your battles appropriately focus on safety, focus on state ability and as such wise governance.

And I’m going to just keep proposing ideas and ultimately it’ll be up to the Ethereum Classic community to decide which one want to do or not. That’s one of the reasons why we are working with Carlo that we wanted to have somebody who could referee that processing.

We can take some ideas instead of just throwing up on medium or cement. We actually have somebody broadcast that Says okay what are you guys saying and much more in-depth and meaningful way, the community deserves that.

Marcus: The roadmap that’s in the slides, we just addressed that but I guess I should say that that’s not the only road map that Classic has in front of right now. That the other road map isn’t building killer dabs, that is only on top of ETC that attracts developers and investors to the platform and there’re 2 that is currently inactive development right now. That is really worth mentioning right now because they do push the platform forward, really cool ways.

The first one is called for Phedonamy and it was left by Avatar Sarah we met her before and you can look at it essentially at the front in is something like Kickstarter so it’s a crowdfunding platform where you can add a project and milestones and have more tears of things like that.

But it’s backed by a smart contract on the ETC trade where funds are held in escrow, if you take a Kickstarter then I going to charge you until the thing is funded but with this you can have funded in escrow, in a smart contract and then released as milestones are met or as a project is fully funded.

There’s also a reputation system that’s being built into this so that developers who sign-on or other individual sign-on can berate and judge based on their previous performance of their project so Phedonamy is actually in beta right now, Avatar starting to see my working very hard on getting this out and allow the core developers have signed on a trident play around with it.

I clean it myself and what was there right now is like truly amazing and so one of our planets is actually used for Phedonamy, Springboard about core developer to help fund core development of ETC because you have a clear-cut central application of people can sign on it too and view this project and interact with the developers directly, you know to fund it that way.

The second one and maybe check I want to jump in on this one. It’s called Tortuga Trading being spearheaded by core developer by name of Cody. Basically what that allows you to do is set up temporary smart contracts between 2 individuals so that individual 8th can say hey I want to buy ETC, I have cash.

Somebody can buy ETC from well then they go on the website and put a map and figure out one another is and they go and they meet and they make the exchange and all this is happening on it on the ETC chain and once they both approve a transaction that handles what’s happened, deck contractors resolve, the buyer get started to see, the seller walks away with cash in hand and It like potential for all other sorts of different things I can come out of that.

Leon: Yeah that’s sound like what a Bitcoin but decentralized

Chuck: It also gonna be for real-life products or even financial product and the very cool thing is that smart contracts are going to be standardized so the average user doesn’t have to know how to use a Smart contract that a code smart contract they just put in input, the website, the application makes all the necessary adjustments.

And instead of having an escrow you have a smart contract, instead of having a central entity like local Bitcoin, which decide who going to get the money or whatever you’re going to have Smart contracts and Cody still trying to figure out arbitration issue, probably going to have third-party, there’s very similar to what’s the website yesterday they talked about and people can have reputation as judges as well whether or not you know whether party A or party B because they’re funded

Marcus: I don’t know how much differentiate from Ethereum but this is something that the core development team is very keen on and it’s the idea of not putting Ethereum or Ethereum Classic rather in front of your average user. It should be something that operates behind the scenes that’s kind of the point and the blockchain and it’s all of these you know you have things like coin base which kind of a step removed when you have all these other services.

If he’s like that that have been popping up but if you look at all the Ethereum, that’s going to be coming out from order to gnosis the golems all those cool things. Very cool but you have to be a power user you have to understand at some level what Ethereum is and how blockchain works in order to use those services.

Where the mindset of we can start target individual users with applications that are still backed by the Classic chain but the user can be separated from the nitty-gritty technical details that don’t really concern them and Tortuga and Phedonamy are like but kind of first steps in that process.

Charles: They can be written anything and they can be written any standard and they can be written by experts and then the next level of the people use them but they don’t need those same level of technical skill and so I really like that they’re going in the particular direction.

And I think it’s going to end up having to save for your experience. It’s really exciting that Grable in just 2 months to an emergency come up with some of the biggest solutions to some of the biggest problems the platform seems to have, then how to fund, how to put reputation into funding and at least types of things.

So on our side we’re going to try to make sure that as many people as possible have a chance to play around with these things especially one, the developers, I feel comfortable showing them, I would love if they get to a certain state actually best of them, get them to a point where their production-ready and able to be used. I think it’s important that we have these tests for platform

Tai Zen: So basically there is a project going on in the background right now hasn’t been really and now simply because they just want things to just the dust to settle about the development of the Ethereum Classic.

Marcus: Yeah yes it’s been coming out slowly and I think Phedonamy was first mentioned in Shanghai when Avatar was out there and talk a little bit about in Phoenix. Like I said core developers are testing it on a daily basis so I’ll leave it up to Avatar when you have something more, they want to put out and show Tortuga that actually was tweeted out the slides for that, that was the Twitter account you can follow add a website up now.

I’ll put the link in the chat so obviously core focus is on the Classic Network what I’m saying is a core developer we started to look at other ways that we can strengthen Classic value proposition. That isn’t just at the protocol level, that’s at dab level where investors can come in and average just come in, laypeople can come in and get on board and use it and contribute to that economy

Tai Zen: Hey I noticed a question from one of the viewers where he asked about the down attacker funds. I noticed that none of you guys to anyone in the developing or anyone that’s recognizable in the Ethereum Classic community is concerned about that. I personally have a concern about that that do you or anyone else, do you guys have a concern about the down attacker’s funds, I’m sure they are watching right now

Marcus: I drop my opinion, in my opinion, all core developers but it’s my personal opinion, I believe that we should freeze all funds and kind of our plan so we have an earlier in this chat, we have a multi-sig contract I’m about to deploy soon with 10 developer signatures on it, 7 requires so we’re going to take the bulk of the current donation, all of it less than 1000 ETC.

And we gonna removing into that multi-sig contract so that people can see that there’s like a more governed way that we were dealing with like donation things like that. That 1000 ETC that down hacker contributed and move that to some other either account or smart contract and freeze it there because it is a thing we don’t actually know what is the status of that.

It is so messy because not only are those to forks dollar coins, yes they might belong to the original dial token holders but we don’t know that certainly because none of this stuff has been like fully sussed out yet.

I think it’s interesting to note and please correct me if I’m wrong on this somebody but Bitcoin is the only Cryptocurrency this actually been recognized in the United States as property, all these other Altcoins that people are investing in and trading on there’s no well define you know legal or tax infrastructure on those quite yet waiting to hear back on it so we want to freeze that money that ETC so that we are informed better by legal counsel or etc that then we can decide what to do with that

Tai Zen: Yeah I was 100% agreed that’s a good idea, that’s an excellent idea because here’s the thing there’s like I mentioned earlier there are no legal repercussions of Ethereum Classic running the way it is but I know this if you touch the thousand Ethereum Classic coins that the down attacker send you and that can be construed as you are you know willingly accepting stolen property even you even not using it.

My suggestion would be just set it aside and then reported to the law-enforcement authorities and say that hey we recognize a business stolen property that was delivered to us and here it is over here and that way that shields you guys Ethereum Classic community from any legal issues because a thousand Etherrium Classic is not worth dealing with to bring it down.

Then you guys don’t want to waste time dealing with the law enforcement authorities in the future about that and I think that’s a fantastic idea to set that aside to not taint the funds are being used by the Ethereum Classic Community to fund the project.

Marcus: You know a lot of the photos out there that we see no I don’t think that we are anxious, we don’t care about what happened to those out funds and that’s not even close to the issue at all.

The issues that we want to be informed on what the right move is we don’t believe that Ethereum foundation which is in the way inform which was done with the hard fork or with the Robinson group who came in and stole the funds that the guy soul, that’s the way that you look at it.

Chuck: We want to point out again that we aren’t soliciting donations from the attacker we don’t want them, we appreciate the gesture but we don’t you know it just give us all a big headache ETC Community and we’re not looking for any more donations from the down attacker. It just makes our job a lot harder, make the core developers jobs harder

Charles: Right so it is a little bit illegal housekeeper with respect to US laws in the United States in England these types of jurisdictions is the analogy. So basically they say what has been done before and how is the situation analogous so they arrested release some clarity I think it was 2014 how they treat Cryptocurrency and basically this was basically saying it’s like a baseball card.

It’s like property and there are other agencies like SCC that they say well if you use it in a certain way then we’re going to treat it a certain way, for example, there’s something cold how we test if you use it a certain way it becomes an investment and so for.

So just because they haven’t explicitly said something on Bitcoin doesn’t necessarily mean they wanted for that propriety on it different coins, that’s kind of the first point. The test is the trading in their market value is there a clear notion of ownership.

The second piece of housekeeping this is a really interesting legal question what exactly is Ethereum Classic, we’re running the original code so original chain. Another group said that just share drop to completely different things from a property perspective so just because you running even original code doesn’t make you the original chain for example 5 fork Bitcoin tomorrow and I’m running the original code, that’s not Bitcoin right, it is?

So that’s a big discussion in it, it’s one you can go down long or short and see if it’s a share drop, it’s hard to infer the ownership properties of Ethereum part for condition with Ethereum Classic so it might not actually be stolen property in that particular case but it’s not something I’d bet the house on, something I’d like to be on the receiving in of it, arguing in a court of law and I think it’s extremely prudent what the developers of darknet market and another freezing those.

By the way that shows you a big contrast between Ethereum and Ethereum hard fork edition wherein Ethereum hark fork, they say oh wow at the protocol level we must do something can change the entire system and here we say oh wow we can freeze the funds in a smart contract.

We actually have some programming ability for the platform, we don’t actually have to change the weight of the entire Cryptocurrency works to accommodate this problem so that’s really nice and I like that we have that luxury and something that we under explore.

The final point is that there should be multiple capital pools and redundancy so if it turns out that something gets contaminated and causes the problem, it shouldn’t cascade through the whole system in hurt every single developer in the system equally. This is why I’ve argued against the formation of open donation pools or Ethereum Classic Foundation or anything like that because of just the central point attack.

It’s better to have multiple teams working in currently, in a loose federation and if one of them does something that’s a little weird or wrong or they get caught up some bizarre legal issue, it won’t harm the other pools and we can still move on in a very methodical way.

Just like Bitcoin I mean if block stream has to go out of business tomorrow, they would still be significant meaningful development in the Bitcoin protocol, Bitcoin protocol is going to move on and I would love to see Ethereum Classic exhibit that kind of bizzilion so I think we are definitely can get to that point.

Tai Zen: You know what in this last two and a half hours a hangout, I think that the biggest takeaway for me as an Ethereum Classic investor is the fact that what you just said like that Marcus is that you guys are going to take 1000 illegal funds, coins that you guys received from the down attacker and set aside not touch it.

To me that gives me extreme confidence as an investor in Ethereum Classic but that right there that shows me that the Ethereum Classic development team, the core, deb team is fully aware the issue and will not jeopardize the project over a few dollars and to me it saves a lot.

It speaks a lot about the Ethereum Classic Community and really reinforces that the decision I made to the ambassador and to say that the people should do it but my personal investment, I think that’s a good sign right there. So we’ve been on this world for a couple of hours now guys about the Ethereum Classic development, any last words or anyone before we wrap it up and conclude this broadcast guy

Chuck: Yeah I would like to mention there were a couple of dabs I don’t think we mentioned. Besides Phedonamy and Tortuga trading, there’s also the Board Down and it’s also mine box IO and those are very interesting capitation and I just wanted to quickly mention and that if you want any ETC wallet go to and that’s easy way to do it and also there’s a Chrome extension by Cody Burns for that.

Tai Zen: What I’ll do is I’ll bring both Carlo and Chuck on a separate, a Hangout that way we can discuss all that development and update the community with it as well. So we will go into more detail about that guy’s in a separate hangout.

Carlo: Also real quick we touched on the people working on this project, I just want to take the entire you know Ethereum Classic Community from the Bitcoin talk forums Reddit, slack the telegram groups in all the other meetups in self-organizing groups all over the world.

And right quick mention of the name some of the people that are really working on this project a lot: Gravity, Igor, Marcus here, Elaine or Colibri, Cody Burns, Eric, Avatar, Sub, Chuck, Mico, Daks and Nud who are handling a lot of our life logos and branding at the beginning and Hai will gonna be out in China for what’s going on out there and anyone else I forgot to mention I apologize but really thank you a lot for everything you’ve done so far.

Tai Zen: I feel that this is like academy awards.

Human: Marcus just quick note and Ethereum Classic investors well and so Tai. Would do you say would you recommend the Classic Etherwallet which it seems to be a fork of my ether wallet is a good place to hold our Ethereum Classic coins, is that something that you can recommend.

Marcus: I will recommend that the browser extension as well which is also based off that same code I’m also using will recommend as far as generating wallet signing transactions in the browser.

Human: That’s as investors, important for us how we holding store are investments.

Chuck: It is developed by Alane, she is one of the core developers, she is working on difficulty bomb a lot, she graduated of Stanford and she has a lot of really cool articles on money that have been included so she’s a very crucial part community and she did that fork of the ClassicEtherWallet in about 2 days, listed it so that’s that was really cool to see.

Tai Zen: Alright what’s the name of that EtherWallet again so I can put it in the description.

Chuck: It’s a

Marcus: The only thing I would say as far as closing you know I came in here and I know what to expect you know volunteering but I quickly found that do people in Ethereum Classic development community who have a similar idea.

I’m sorry ideal of moving forward in this direction to overtake Ethereum not necessary to get rid of it but solver take it and provide more value and overall become we believe Ethereum should have come in the first place so I’m really excited to be here I am very fortunate to be working with these smart people you know a lot of work smarter than me and I just I’m excited about where we go next with it.

Tai Zen: All right guys so any last words Leon.

Leon: I’m good, that’s the question I had about where’d we should store right now we’ve been storing in my Etherwallet, sort of that that wasn’t really designed for Ethereum Classic so I think I will look at that wallet. Thank you.

Tai Zen: My also I think it kinds of messed up that they won’t allow us to the story on the story Ethereum Classic on their wallet, I think that’s the most user-friendly one out there they have the best Ether wallet out there. But when you send Ether to it, you can only see your account balance when you click on the send button, it doesn’t show up in the regular and you don’t see it on the Chrome extension either until you hit send tokens.

And then that’s when you can see what your account balance is. But I trusted that my since Ethereum came out and I’ve been using that so that’s what we’ve been using the store. We saw that but I wasn’t sure is it legitimate or not.

Marcus: Yeah they have been some unfortunate events from my Ether wallet you know fishing sites that have pop-up that they’ve been trying to battle against for a while now, Ether wallet again it was developed by Alane, the point at Ethereum Classic knows you can be sure that your transactions are happening on Ethereum Classic.

But like I mention that Jack, just a couple weeks ago as a supporter for Ethereum Classic so there’s a story right now I guess, Apple rejected Classic on the AppStore for now but on every other platform that Jack runs on from the browser to desktop to Android, they do support Ethereum Classic as well so obvious Jack as well so I would definitely recommend that as another plus quality.

Chuck: Not to mention you can use the Ledger wallet  also Ethereum Classic if you wanna use a Hardware wallet, you’re kind of one of Bitcoin treasure or Ledger Nano S guide

Leon: You need to edit the segments because investors need to know how to hold and store.

Tai Zen: I’ll make a separate video about that. Okay this is the conclude of the broadcast

Charles: One last thing, I’d like to thank everybody in the community know what my first Ethereum was around November of 2013, what’s a really exciting project and what is the most exciting time in Miami 24th January and just everybody was super passionate.

And they were just filled with join and they were free about using your imagination kind of lost that luster after a while but Ethereum Classic I feel it again and that’s so cool. I don’t know how long the feelings going to last and I don’t know how long will be these days but I’m enjoying them while they’re here.

And I’m saying this especially the Carlos and Carlos and Marcus, guys you’re going to remember on and thanks for being here and thanks for working so hard. I’m really proud of the work you’ve done and I’m extremely excited to see where we’re going to go with this. Leon and Tai Zen thanks for keeping us honest.

Tai Zen: This will conclude the broadcast and thanks for watching us guys if you guys have any additional questions, I have the most of the links that everyone discusses in the description below, make sure you follow everyone on the Twitter and that’s what you’ll get the latest news.

I am cool everyone’s Twitter handle in the description box as well and would you guys like you sent a video give us a thumbs up if you guys don’t like it give us a thumbs down so we don’t waste time making it.

And if you have any people new to invest in Cryptocurrency or want to know more about the Ethereum Classic will be covering on a frequent basis, make sure you let them know about our channel and subscribe if you have it and we will see you guys in a future video and this concludes of the broadcast.

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